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Anybody in the U.S. worried about the ProAct?
Thread poster: Esther Pugh
Sadek_A
Sadek_A  Identity Verified
Local time: 17:08
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Let's apply your SAME logic! Mar 26, 2021

Kaspars Melkis wrote:
Maybe freelancing wasn't for her and she would do better by finding a job.

Maybe gig employment is NOT for those opposing the Act, and they would do better by finding a different activity.

REMEMBER: "there is no FREE LUNCH" & "nobody owes you ANYTHING [not the US government, or any other government for that matter; not the PROAct; not a single creature or object, current or future; if you don't like the Act, find yourself something else and learn to adapt]".

How do you like your logic now?


 
Esther Pugh
Esther Pugh  Identity Verified
United States
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To each their own Mar 26, 2021

Kaspars Melkis wrote:

Leigh had freedom to tell the client that she needs to take a break. She wasn't forced to work.

Maybe freelancing wasn't for her and she would do better by finding a job.

I prefer the NHS model in the UK but other European countries have different systems that also work very well whereas the US system is clearly a mess. That needs to be fixed instead of attacking freelance work.


I agree with all of the above.

Plus, if you are a sole proprietor/small business owner, and the government “forces” your clients (in T&I, that could amount to 15-25 potential “employers” in any given year) to misclassify you as a W-2 employee, none of these companies would hire you full time with benefits anyways. So that’s not a valid argument. You could end up tied down in a dead-end W-2 job (or two), each 20 hours a week or less, with no healthcare etc.

And there’s the false argument also that the government loses tax money, because we don’t pay into the UI system. Well, yes, but we also don’t get UI benefits, so where’s the loss? There isn’t any. You should do the math and put aside enough money to get you through dry spells. That’s the risk you take if you’re self-employed. Applies to small biz, medium-sized with a few people working for you, and large businesses with 100s and 1000s of (W-2) employees. If you start a business, you take a risk.

To summarize it: If you feel exploited by your clients/customers as a small business owner, you should not go solo, instead you should swiftly apply for a FULL-TIME W-2 job with BENEFITS that suits your lifestyle and needs. All others should be left alone while they’re running their businesses. Because obviously they feel like they’re getting something out of it, something valuable that they wouldn’t get if they were W-2 employees. For most it’s money, flexibility & freedom.


Kaspars Melkis
Irene (Renata) Liapis
 
Michael Wetzel
Michael Wetzel  Identity Verified
Germany
Local time: 14:08
German to English
Not meant as an insult. Mar 26, 2021

Kaspars Melkis wrote:


$32,000 per year is enough to live comfortably in many places of the world and even in many places in the US. Maybe New York is more expensive but the article doesn't say that this is the income of freelancers in NY only. Freelance writers don't have to live in NY city, they have a freedom to move where rent is cheaper. Personally I am moving around a lot. That's my preference. Saying that now I need to get a job that most likely will oblige me to live continuously in one place because I only make around $32,000 per year or even less, is frankly an insult.


I am not trying to insult anyone, and I don't make much more than $32,000 per year myself, but I also left for greener (or redder) pastures years ago. And $32,000 is a ton of money a lot of places in the world and good money in a lot of personal situations. However, if you are struggling with student debt, if you take out a mortgage, if you have a significant medical hiccup after keeping down your premiums through high deductibles and co-payments, if you end up piling up other debt by having to use credit to deal with emergencies or dry spells, if you have dependents, if you want or need to retire some day, then it's not much money in the US.

I am not defending the B Prong. It is screwed up and the big fish probably have the lawyers to get around it. However, the whole jobs-grow-on-trees, "jedem das seine" attitude is kind of repulsive to me. But I'm going to shut up now because, while most of my family is in the US, I am not and the original post was understandably addressed to translators in the US who are directly affected by this legislation and not to Americans who jumped ship years ago. To you your ideology and to me mine, this is your thread.

And thanks to Sadek for condensing my incredibly long post.


Sadek_A
 
Abba Storgen (X)
Abba Storgen (X)
United States
Local time: 08:08
Greek to English
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If you are translating lots of stuff on a daily basis... Mar 30, 2021

Esther Pugh wrote:

For most it’s money, flexibility & freedom.



...then you would know that the word that occurs the most in texts to translate the last 6-7 years is "compliance". I have been saying that for years now, I just didn't predict the intensity.

Not flexibility or freedom, while the money concentrates in fewer pockets. For "our safety". How did that other global private organization put it? "You'll own nothing, have no privacy, and you'll be happy".

At least we lived a few decades of some freedom... (at least the freedom to work fort ourselves).
It's the new generation I'm mourning about.
As for that NYT article, these are usually opinion-measuring articles, they check the responses. The NYT has been also promoting the idea of very tiny apartments and material minimalism for years. In their ideal world, humans are packed nicely in modern Soviet-style buildings like sterile cattle, under constant monitoring.


Gerard Barry
Irene (Renata) Liapis
 
Abba Storgen (X)
Abba Storgen (X)
United States
Local time: 08:08
Greek to English
+ ...
For Young/Single, dumping the USA and US citizenship may be a very good choice. Mar 30, 2021

We're not in the USA for the food recipes or the weather. If the regulatory environment becomes more restrictive than that in the EU/UK, and taxes reach about the same levels, then dumping the USA and going back is perhaps a very good option for the younger and single professionals.
Public transportation, cheaper healthcare, a less demanding environment, easier social life etc. already long established and available. Not everything is rosy, but on the balance Europe wins. If the USA loses
... See more
We're not in the USA for the food recipes or the weather. If the regulatory environment becomes more restrictive than that in the EU/UK, and taxes reach about the same levels, then dumping the USA and going back is perhaps a very good option for the younger and single professionals.
Public transportation, cheaper healthcare, a less demanding environment, easier social life etc. already long established and available. Not everything is rosy, but on the balance Europe wins. If the USA loses its advantages for professionals, no reason to be here. Dumping the useless US citizenship too is also a good idea.
This administration has shown its intentions about freelance work, and even if the ProAct doesn't pass, other State-based regulations will pass (AB5 in most States...).
For the younger and single, it's probably a very good idea to leave.
For the little older ones, moving to Europe gives them a little more time to keep working in the translation industry, if they think it's worth it.
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I read something above about $32,000 per year. Anywhere in the US, even in the cheapest place (and I have lived in one of those), this amount doesn't justify freelance work. In most areas of Europe it's an "ok" amount though.
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Esther Pugh
Esther Pugh  Identity Verified
United States
Local time: 09:08
Member (2014)
English to German
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TOPIC STARTER
The infrastructure bill Mar 31, 2021

In case anybody has missed it, Biden has now shoehorned the ProAct into his infrastructure bill. Also, in the meantime, he has offered joe manchin’s wife a govt job.


https://woub.org/2021/03/29/biden-picks-gayle-manchin-wife-of-wv-senator-for-appalachian-regional-commission/


 
Sadek_A
Sadek_A  Identity Verified
Local time: 17:08
English to Arabic
+ ...
..... Mar 31, 2021

Regarding tiny apartments and material minimalism, no sane person with the slightest trace of wisdom would deny that certain parts of this world and certain categories of global population are burning through materials like there is no tomorrow (or, more precisely, like they don't want there to be a tomorrow).

One of the latest stupid ways of burning through vital materials is, surprise surprise, a portable blender for all the on-the-go needs 😃.

The blender's capacit
... See more
Regarding tiny apartments and material minimalism, no sane person with the slightest trace of wisdom would deny that certain parts of this world and certain categories of global population are burning through materials like there is no tomorrow (or, more precisely, like they don't want there to be a tomorrow).

One of the latest stupid ways of burning through vital materials is, surprise surprise, a portable blender for all the on-the-go needs 😃.

The blender's capacity and efficiency are laughable, according to those who bought it.

And, the very concept of needing a blender on-the-go is ridiculous. So, a camper is out there in the woods not worried about some bear biting their ass off, running into some maniac, suddenly becoming ill in the middle of nowhere, etc., NO, they would be worried about needing to blend something and not being able to do so right out there.

Of course, the blender (among stacks of other unwise products) was delivered by the need to manufacture, that was brought forward by the need to pay workers, that was necessitated by the need to keep them from rioting!

A wiser consumption (not ending consumption) is needed, that's a fact.
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Dan Lucas
Dan Lucas  Identity Verified
United Kingdom
Local time: 13:08
Member (2014)
Japanese to English
Terra incognita Mar 31, 2021

Esther Pugh wrote:
In case anybody has missed it, Biden has now shoehorned the ProAct into his infrastructure bill.

A very good article emphasising the sheer uncertainty and complexity that the Act would generate.

Money quote from labor lawyer:

the ABC test in the PRO Act is a “massive conflict” with existing laws and ... anyone who says they know exactly what the implications are is “not being truthful.”

Dan


 
Abba Storgen (X)
Abba Storgen (X)
United States
Local time: 08:08
Greek to English
+ ...
AB 2257 Mar 31, 2021

#1. The individual provides services under a contract that specifies their rate of pay, a defined time by which they must receive their payment, and the individual’s intellectual property rights to the work.

#2. The individual does not primarily provide services at the hiring entity’s business location.

#3. The hiring entity does not hire the individual to provide services that would directly replace an existing employee who does the same work at the same volume, or
... See more
#1. The individual provides services under a contract that specifies their rate of pay, a defined time by which they must receive their payment, and the individual’s intellectual property rights to the work.

#2. The individual does not primarily provide services at the hiring entity’s business location.

#3. The hiring entity does not hire the individual to provide services that would directly replace an existing employee who does the same work at the same volume, or prevent the individual from providing services to more than one hiring entity.

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I found somewhere that these were the criteria of AB 2257 in California, which replaced AB5 for "...a freelance writer, still photographer, photojournalist, or editor...".

If these criteria replace the ProAct test, then we're in the clear. If not, then a quite large number of home-based jobs, not only translators, will migrate abroad.

Of course the statistics will be made to show we're all employed... (lol).
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Irene (Renata) Liapis
 
Irene (Renata) Liapis
Irene (Renata) Liapis  Identity Verified
Greece
Member (2005)
Italian to English
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More input on this issue Apr 17, 2021

I came across this dated March 31, 2021 in https://fortune.com/2021/03/31/pro-act-freelance-gig-workers/

"Many white-collar freelancers, like accountants and journalists, also worry that the ABC test might hurt their bottom lines. Employers might worry that hiring them will violate the law, and they’ll lose out on income, they argue.

But what is n
... See more
I came across this dated March 31, 2021 in https://fortune.com/2021/03/31/pro-act-freelance-gig-workers/

"Many white-collar freelancers, like accountants and journalists, also worry that the ABC test might hurt their bottom lines. Employers might worry that hiring them will violate the law, and they’ll lose out on income, they argue.

But what is not being made clear by lobbyists and business advocates is that the ABC test used in the PRO act is just for determining whether a freelance worker is able to participate in a union contract, not if they have to be onboarded as a full-time employee to do work for a company.

“Nothing in the PRO Act outlaws any kind of work arrangement. The PRO Act’s 'ABC test' only determines who qualifies for NLRA protection if and when they try to engage in collective action, organize a union or bargain collectively,” wrote the AFL-CIO. “The PRO Act does not affect any of the laws that typically determine whether someone is hired as a W-2 employee, most notably tax law, but also minimum wage, overtime, unemployment insurance, workers’ compensation, etc.”

It’s not unusual for states to use the ABC test for selective purposes only; some use it to determine who gets unemployment benefits, and others use it to determine minimum wage or overtime protections only."

If this is really the case, then is the problem that the law was misinterpreted by clients in California and elsewhere?
And if this was the case, why was an exception necessary?


[Edited at 2021-04-17 11:34 GMT]
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Esther Pugh
Esther Pugh  Identity Verified
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NLRA Apr 17, 2021

True - in CA, the focus of AB 5 was minimum wage, maximum hours, workers’ compensation, UI, health insurance and paid sick leave that is available to employees. But it backfired, it didn’t work, and Prop22 passed, as well as a boatload of exemptions.

Don’t let them fool you, though. It’s clearly stated on Biden’s website that misclassifying independent contractors as employees is an end goal. That was his campaign promise. He got lots of union money in return. The curr
... See more
True - in CA, the focus of AB 5 was minimum wage, maximum hours, workers’ compensation, UI, health insurance and paid sick leave that is available to employees. But it backfired, it didn’t work, and Prop22 passed, as well as a boatload of exemptions.

Don’t let them fool you, though. It’s clearly stated on Biden’s website that misclassifying independent contractors as employees is an end goal. That was his campaign promise. He got lots of union money in return. The current version of the ProAct claims to only refer to the collective right to bargain, but then there’s this follow-up bill:

https://www.help.senate.gov/ranking/newsroom/press/-murray-brown-delauro-introduce-landmark-bill-expanding-labor-laws-to-protect-workers-

It never ends. It’s like playing whac-a-mole.

There are 4 Dem Senators that haven’t cosponsored the bill yet. They’re under a lot of union pressure right now, and I’m proud of them. It can’t be easy. It’s important that lawmakers understand the devastation that AB5 has caused, and it’s important that they understand what a nationwide ABC test will cause.

Here’s a good article:

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.forbes.com/sites/eriksherman/2021/03/24/pro-act-and-abc-test-no-one-knows-what-the-effects-will-be/amp/
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Irene (Renata) Liapis
Irene (Renata) Liapis  Identity Verified
Greece
Member (2005)
Italian to English
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Biden's website and more references Apr 17, 2021

Hi Esther,
Is know the sections you are referring to, one of them is:
"Extend the right to organize and bargain collectively to independent contractors. Some workers are correctly classified as independent contractors, but are not very different from employees. They bring only their labor, and perhaps a small amount of capital investment, to the organization with which they do business. These workers lack individual bargaining power and, as a result, are at grave risk of exploitatio
... See more
Hi Esther,
Is know the sections you are referring to, one of them is:
"Extend the right to organize and bargain collectively to independent contractors. Some workers are correctly classified as independent contractors, but are not very different from employees. They bring only their labor, and perhaps a small amount of capital investment, to the organization with which they do business. These workers lack individual bargaining power and, as a result, are at grave risk of exploitation by big business. Biden supports modifying antitrust law and guaranteeing that these independent contractors can organize and bargain collectively for their mutual protection and benefit."?

Aside from that you are perfectly right and thank you for the link. Here is another by the same writer which is interesting (or should I say distressing):
https://www.forbes.com/sites/eriksherman/2021/04/05/how-democrats-and-unions-plan-to-wipe-out-independent-contractors/?sh=521ff026472f.

Do you know when this bill is expected to be voted on (I read here https://www.constructiondive.com/news/could-the-pro-act-become-law/598270/ that the bill has to be brought to the floor for a vote by December 31, 2022 at the latest)?

Also, what about the individual states that are going about this on their own? Won't that affect the translators in those states just as much as the ProAct will?
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Esther Pugh
Esther Pugh  Identity Verified
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Timeline? Apr 17, 2021

Nobody knows when it's going to be voted on, or even brought to the floor (yes – the bill has to be brought to the floor for a vote by December 31, 2022 & we might have a different House & Senate majority by then (fingers crossed)).

But in the meantime the Democrats have now been trying to conveniently wrap ProAct into Biden's infrastrucuture bill.

I don't think, however, that PRO Act provisions are eligible for inclusion in the infrastructure bill because of the rule
... See more
Nobody knows when it's going to be voted on, or even brought to the floor (yes – the bill has to be brought to the floor for a vote by December 31, 2022 & we might have a different House & Senate majority by then (fingers crossed)).

But in the meantime the Democrats have now been trying to conveniently wrap ProAct into Biden's infrastrucuture bill.

I don't think, however, that PRO Act provisions are eligible for inclusion in the infrastructure bill because of the rules of reconciliation (depending on what parts of the PRO Act actually end up in the bill, if any).

As a standalone bill, it has no path to the 60 vote threshold required for passage as long as the filibuster remains in place. There are also not 50 votes to send it to the floor.

It's important that Manchin, Sinema and other moderates don't change their perspectives.

So we'll see.....


[Edited at 2021-04-17 18:18 GMT]
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Abba Storgen (X)
Abba Storgen (X)
United States
Local time: 08:08
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What are we protecting, a gold mine? Apr 19, 2021

Esther Pugh wrote:
So we'll see.....




Anyone who's seen the prices announced (or enforced) recently by the major 2-3 agencies (which control about 90% of certain languages) would wonder if it's even worth worrying about it. It's not as if we'll lose a gold mine.

Those with direct clients can still work without restrictions, since the ABC test doesn't apply to them.
It only affects those working with agencies. Agencies with sufficient volumes are now working with MT and the new prices amount to something like 2-3 cents per word, more or less. Agencies that pay more and don't care about MT don't have enough volume to cover even modest groceries. And the volume that still pays a decent rate is decreasing rapidly. Even agencies that want to pay their translators more, cave in to competition by the cheap gigantic ones.

You can differentiate yourself with much better quality and good writing, and guess what - nobody cares. This is a result of my own investigation after reviewing, as an editor, a large number of projects for over 6 months lately, producing a detailed report and sending/storing my own reports. My conclusion is that "even 10 critical errors per 1,000 words is ok, as long as their clients never notice. Not talking synonyms or legal ambiguities here; I'm talking about translating a donkey as a banana, that bad. I'm talking about Google Trans sounding like a professor by comparison. PMs are unable to tell the good translator from the bad, they don't speak the language. In the vast majority of cases they pick according to personal feelings or impressions or resume exaggerations.
It's all the rage nowadays to start an agency (all you need is 1 computer and 1 desk) in any industry you pick out of a phone book, and make a casino-like Project Software that forces professionals to wait all day looking at the screen in their agony not to miss something that pops-up - the critical effects on their health are ENORMOUS (high blood pressure, poor circulation, weak bones, various orthopedic issues, deep vein thrombosis, pancreas and stomach problems, weak immune system, etc), let alone zero social connections and zero job-related opportunities. This is cave-based labor now. Misery for the translator, but it works like a charm for the agency. And if they realize that, they'll probably send us an email telling us to walk around the desk 30 times every 10 minutes, so that they feel better about themselves taking care of it.

Of course one can take on an enormous daily volume of work at almost zero price as a desperate attempt to hold on to a sinking ship. Or one can hope that he/she can hold on to an income if he/she shrinks his/her life enough (in both free time and income) for the next 5 years or so. Personally I never thought it will last long, realistically, but I hoped for a longer warning. Though I have been warning as people here know, for more than 10 years, the cutoff curve of 2020-2021 was steep.
The 12 cents per word rate (the norm in the days of TMs 15 years ago) should have been more than 19 cents per word now (inflation-adjusted). Instead it'll go soon to 2 cents. This ProAct law will probably force us out of this misery, since we're not willing to do it ourselves.

Personally I stopped worrying a few days ago, when I realized that this job has no good future, at least not for US standards and cost of living. Apparently I had to go through the "5 stages of grief", since nobody wanted to take my 12-year old warnings seriously. There's an enormous amount of money printed by governments nowadays which goes to various developing industries and projects - the translation field is still based on sweat equity, but now it's very cheap too.

What are we trying to save, so passionately? A gold mine? Hardly...


Kaspars Melkis
 
Esther Pugh
Esther Pugh  Identity Verified
United States
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English to German
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TOPIC STARTER
Manchin now cosponsor Apr 19, 2021

Esther Pugh wrote:

It's important that Manchin, Sinema and other moderates don't change their perspectives.

So we'll see.....


[Edited at 2021-04-17 18:18 GMT]


Ok - Sinema, Warner & Kelly


 
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