Mar 31, 2023 22:23
1 yr ago
37 viewers *
French term

indivision

French to English Law/Patents Law (general) joint tenancy or tenancy in common for INDIVISION?
I'm translating an official French court judgment from French to English regarding a property dispute, and there are 3 'indivisions' (indivision X, indivision Y and and indivision Z)
I saw several Kudoz entries suggesting undivided co-ownership as the appropriate translation.

But could it be the best equivalent of the French 'indivision' (in case of property co-ownership) be 'tenancy in common?' I read about the English law equivalent of 'en indivision' here:
https://www.investopedia.com/terms/t/tenancy_in_common.asp

Then again, when translating an official document such as a court judgement from French to English, would it be appropriate to write an English law equivalent or best to keep a more litteral translation of definition of the French system 'indivision', such as ''undivided co-ownership'?

Discussion

Conor McAuley Apr 2, 2023:
I assume for some reason that the great Mr Bridge is long in his grave anyway, and wouldn't benefit from any extra sales anyway.
Conor McAuley Apr 2, 2023:
There's no need to buy the book actually, some smart internet searching works just fine.

You on a grumpy lark then?

AllegroTrans Apr 2, 2023:
@ Conor You on a commission lark then?
Conor McAuley Apr 1, 2023:
For reference https://books.google.fr/books?id=rQAKtn-XjzIC&pg=PA163&lpg=P...

This book is probably THE best legal dictionary, note its title for future internet searches or buy the e-book, I would suggest.
Conor McAuley Apr 1, 2023:
What is the exact situation? Is the "indivision" an apartment block, land and buildings, other?

In most cases

co-owned property

or

jointly-owned property

will be fine.

No need to overthink it or gloss about the French system of "indivision" in relation to apartment blocks, this comes from context.

FPC Apr 1, 2023:
Yes "Indivision" seems to me, too, different from any other common law concept, e.g. joint tenancy, tenancy in common and tenancy in entirety, in that it shares features with more than one. "Indivision" is a form of allocation of property *rights* that doesn't involve an allocation of percentages of the property to the different tenants, as is the case in tenancy in common or joint tenancy, to my knowledge. Also in the case of "indivision" certain acts cannot be carried out by only one indivisaire autonomously (such as letting or selling parts of the property. Each "indivisaire" is owner of the entire real property, hence he's more like a common-law tenant in entirety. On the other hand unlike the latter, when the indivision is split, i.e. the property is sold, then the proceeds are shared according to the share in the property right defined in the deed / judgment that had established the "indivision".
AllegroTrans Apr 1, 2023:
Asker You raise an important point; whether to use English/common law equivalents or to try to be more general. Translators will always argue over this but in my opinion "tenancy in common" is far too anglocentric to describe the French system of co-ownership.
Mpoma Apr 1, 2023:
Already 10 entries in these archives Did you search before posting? You're meant to. If this is an unusual example, posing a particular problem, we'd need to see how, i.e. more from the source text (disguise for confidentiality as appropriate).
Lisa Reutenauer (asker) Mar 31, 2023:
specifying the form and context the text is written like so on the judgment (just changed the names et address)
INDIVISION PAUL DUPONT REPRÉSENTÉE PAR :
Monsieur Michel LAMOUCHE, demeurant 2 route de Saint
Glinglin à VIEILLE PEAU (01234).

Maybe Undivided co-property in this case?

Proposed translations

+1
20 hrs
Selected

Consortium ownership

At the suggestion of Allegrotrans; it could be this, hard to tell for sure, and am ceekily higlighting my little East London team ,( where I'm a long-standing season ticket holder) and which is effectively run by a consortium.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/40366597

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Note added at 1 day 1 hr (2023-04-01 23:56:17 GMT)
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https://www.proz.com/kudoz/french-to-english/law-general/712...

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Note added at 1 day 1 hr (2023-04-01 23:57:32 GMT)
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But in all honesty I prefer Adrian's answer from 2012, which was spot on the money.

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Note added at 1 day 13 hrs (2023-04-02 11:51:56 GMT)
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Co- ownership, common ownership, consortium ownership, undivided real estate, all strike me as live possibilities here, on mature reectflion.
Peer comment(s):

agree AllegroTrans : On the right lines, but perhaps "consortium of co-owners" would work better; it would be instructive to know whether this is merely an ad hoc group of co-owners or those of a specific building or part of a building
18 hrs
Yep, thanks; but from the context it is hard to know.
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4 KudoZ points awarded for this answer.
+1
45 mins

(succession) coparcenary; joint tenancy (undivided proprietary title)

> as opposed to a tenancy-in-common, but - counter-intuitively in Eng. land law, as I have been trying to explain for 40 years to esteemed inhouse & freelance translators and interpreters - the exact *opposite as separate* 'tenanted-in-common' property, also ambiguously as a form of co-ownership, not only land, but also of bank a/cs and chattels. Can be held in proportions of, say, 10% and 90%, so splittable into separately willed percentages.

Joint tenancy / 'jointly tenanted' bank a/cs pass automatically by jus / ius accresccendi so by survivorship to the survivor. Each deemed to own the property 100% or, in some other Roman law civil systems, to hold 'ideal' = *notional* shares of 50/50.

PS coparcenary X, Y & Z would IMO work well in an inheritance context, not only of Indian female inheritors (daughters will take equally) as per g/hits -> the Hindu Succession (Amendment) Act, 2005.
Example sentence:

iate : fr indivision CdT en coparcenary

Peer comment(s):

neutral Jennifer Levey : Why do you assume that in Asker's context any/all of the 3 'indivisions' only involve part-owners who are related to one another? (Disagree pending, if you can't convince... )
2 hrs
You're right. I can't work out from INDIVISION PAUL DUPONT whether Paul D. is an *indvisaire* as co-owner -> a joint tenant /'coparcener' vs. a separate tenant-in-common or whether referring to an *undivided estate* passing to 'inheritors' e.g. Y&Z.
agree Mpoma : In 2012 you preferred (https://www.proz.com/kudoz/french-to-english/law-general/486... ) "undivided estate". Bridge likes "ownership in common" as a catch-all and says "where appropriate" for co-parceny...
8 hrs
Thanks for that, Mpoma. 'Undivided estate X, Y and Z' doesn't exactly roll off the tongue, but is arguably a workable alternative, dodging - as it does - the question of who are the indivisaires: joint tenants/ coparceners X,Y, Z or someone else.
neutral AllegroTrans : You are complicating this; I doubt whether this has anything to do with inheritance, but with (living) co-owners of a building (or part of a building), in dispute.
1 day 17 hrs
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+1
11 hrs

joint and several ownership/co-ownership

We don't know what exact species of ownership are involved here, although I somehow suspect these are groups of individuals having co-ownershios in a property development
Peer comment(s):

agree Andrew Bramhall : Very possibly so; it may well be a consortium. Love Adrian's introduction of new word " coparceny";// but I'd beware AMM's use of "succession" as a direct equivalent of the French, where it means 'estate'.as in a will and not 'follow-on'; tentative agree
50 mins
thanks, "consortium" could work well - suggest it
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