Mar 31, 2023 22:23
1 yr ago
37 viewers *
French term
indivision
French to English
Law/Patents
Law (general)
joint tenancy or tenancy in common for INDIVISION?
I'm translating an official French court judgment from French to English regarding a property dispute, and there are 3 'indivisions' (indivision X, indivision Y and and indivision Z)
I saw several Kudoz entries suggesting undivided co-ownership as the appropriate translation.
But could it be the best equivalent of the French 'indivision' (in case of property co-ownership) be 'tenancy in common?' I read about the English law equivalent of 'en indivision' here:
https://www.investopedia.com/terms/t/tenancy_in_common.asp
Then again, when translating an official document such as a court judgement from French to English, would it be appropriate to write an English law equivalent or best to keep a more litteral translation of definition of the French system 'indivision', such as ''undivided co-ownership'?
I saw several Kudoz entries suggesting undivided co-ownership as the appropriate translation.
But could it be the best equivalent of the French 'indivision' (in case of property co-ownership) be 'tenancy in common?' I read about the English law equivalent of 'en indivision' here:
https://www.investopedia.com/terms/t/tenancy_in_common.asp
Then again, when translating an official document such as a court judgement from French to English, would it be appropriate to write an English law equivalent or best to keep a more litteral translation of definition of the French system 'indivision', such as ''undivided co-ownership'?
Proposed translations
(English)
3 +1 | Consortium ownership | Andrew Bramhall |
4 +1 | (succession) coparcenary; joint tenancy (undivided proprietary title) | Adrian MM. |
3 +1 | joint and several ownership/co-ownership | AllegroTrans |
Proposed translations
+1
20 hrs
Selected
Consortium ownership
At the suggestion of Allegrotrans; it could be this, hard to tell for sure, and am ceekily higlighting my little East London team ,( where I'm a long-standing season ticket holder) and which is effectively run by a consortium.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/40366597
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Note added at 1 day 1 hr (2023-04-01 23:56:17 GMT)
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https://www.proz.com/kudoz/french-to-english/law-general/712...
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Note added at 1 day 1 hr (2023-04-01 23:57:32 GMT)
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But in all honesty I prefer Adrian's answer from 2012, which was spot on the money.
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Note added at 1 day 13 hrs (2023-04-02 11:51:56 GMT)
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Co- ownership, common ownership, consortium ownership, undivided real estate, all strike me as live possibilities here, on mature reectflion.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/40366597
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Note added at 1 day 1 hr (2023-04-01 23:56:17 GMT)
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https://www.proz.com/kudoz/french-to-english/law-general/712...
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Note added at 1 day 1 hr (2023-04-01 23:57:32 GMT)
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But in all honesty I prefer Adrian's answer from 2012, which was spot on the money.
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Note added at 1 day 13 hrs (2023-04-02 11:51:56 GMT)
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Co- ownership, common ownership, consortium ownership, undivided real estate, all strike me as live possibilities here, on mature reectflion.
Peer comment(s):
agree |
AllegroTrans
: On the right lines, but perhaps "consortium of co-owners" would work better; it would be instructive to know whether this is merely an ad hoc group of co-owners or those of a specific building or part of a building
18 hrs
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Yep, thanks; but from the context it is hard to know.
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4 KudoZ points awarded for this answer.
+1
45 mins
(succession) coparcenary; joint tenancy (undivided proprietary title)
> as opposed to a tenancy-in-common, but - counter-intuitively in Eng. land law, as I have been trying to explain for 40 years to esteemed inhouse & freelance translators and interpreters - the exact *opposite as separate* 'tenanted-in-common' property, also ambiguously as a form of co-ownership, not only land, but also of bank a/cs and chattels. Can be held in proportions of, say, 10% and 90%, so splittable into separately willed percentages.
Joint tenancy / 'jointly tenanted' bank a/cs pass automatically by jus / ius accresccendi so by survivorship to the survivor. Each deemed to own the property 100% or, in some other Roman law civil systems, to hold 'ideal' = *notional* shares of 50/50.
PS coparcenary X, Y & Z would IMO work well in an inheritance context, not only of Indian female inheritors (daughters will take equally) as per g/hits -> the Hindu Succession (Amendment) Act, 2005.
Joint tenancy / 'jointly tenanted' bank a/cs pass automatically by jus / ius accresccendi so by survivorship to the survivor. Each deemed to own the property 100% or, in some other Roman law civil systems, to hold 'ideal' = *notional* shares of 50/50.
PS coparcenary X, Y & Z would IMO work well in an inheritance context, not only of Indian female inheritors (daughters will take equally) as per g/hits -> the Hindu Succession (Amendment) Act, 2005.
Example sentence:
iate : fr indivision CdT en coparcenary
Peer comment(s):
neutral |
Jennifer Levey
: Why do you assume that in Asker's context any/all of the 3 'indivisions' only involve part-owners who are related to one another? (Disagree pending, if you can't convince... )
2 hrs
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You're right. I can't work out from INDIVISION PAUL DUPONT whether Paul D. is an *indvisaire* as co-owner -> a joint tenant /'coparcener' vs. a separate tenant-in-common or whether referring to an *undivided estate* passing to 'inheritors' e.g. Y&Z.
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agree |
Mpoma
: In 2012 you preferred (https://www.proz.com/kudoz/french-to-english/law-general/486... ) "undivided estate". Bridge likes "ownership in common" as a catch-all and says "where appropriate" for co-parceny...
8 hrs
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Thanks for that, Mpoma. 'Undivided estate X, Y and Z' doesn't exactly roll off the tongue, but is arguably a workable alternative, dodging - as it does - the question of who are the indivisaires: joint tenants/ coparceners X,Y, Z or someone else.
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neutral |
AllegroTrans
: You are complicating this; I doubt whether this has anything to do with inheritance, but with (living) co-owners of a building (or part of a building), in dispute.
1 day 17 hrs
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+1
11 hrs
joint and several ownership/co-ownership
We don't know what exact species of ownership are involved here, although I somehow suspect these are groups of individuals having co-ownershios in a property development
Peer comment(s):
agree |
Andrew Bramhall
: Very possibly so; it may well be a consortium. Love Adrian's introduction of new word " coparceny";// but I'd beware AMM's use of "succession" as a direct equivalent of the French, where it means 'estate'.as in a will and not 'follow-on'; tentative agree
50 mins
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thanks, "consortium" could work well - suggest it
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Discussion
You on a grumpy lark then?
This book is probably THE best legal dictionary, note its title for future internet searches or buy the e-book, I would suggest.
In most cases
co-owned property
or
jointly-owned property
will be fine.
No need to overthink it or gloss about the French system of "indivision" in relation to apartment blocks, this comes from context.
INDIVISION PAUL DUPONT REPRÉSENTÉE PAR :
Monsieur Michel LAMOUCHE, demeurant 2 route de Saint
Glinglin à VIEILLE PEAU (01234).
Maybe Undivided co-property in this case?