| Pages in topic: < [1 2 3 4 5 6] > | Kudoz abuse? Thread poster: Per Bergvall
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Anya Lester (X)
United States
Local time: 21:29
English to Russian
+ ...
| I think the problem is lack of certification | Mar 2, 2010 |
In my opinion the reason for this problem lies in a blurry situation with certification. If we had a good system of certification then subject matter expertise for each translator would be supported by an official document and better defined and prices were justified. If there is no official certification for Engineering Translators (Medical Translators, Marketing Translators, etc.) there is nothing that precludes incompetent people from advertising any services whatsoever. If we had better cert... See more In my opinion the reason for this problem lies in a blurry situation with certification. If we had a good system of certification then subject matter expertise for each translator would be supported by an official document and better defined and prices were justified. If there is no official certification for Engineering Translators (Medical Translators, Marketing Translators, etc.) there is nothing that precludes incompetent people from advertising any services whatsoever. If we had better certification with official rules both for translators and purchasers, we would not be facing such chaos with low pricing and low quality! ▲ Collapse
| | | | Lingua 5B 
Bosnia and Herzegovina
Local time: 03:29
Member (2009)
English to Croatian
+ ...
| Not only expert questions | Mar 2, 2010 |
By far, my favorites are noun phrases and syntagms that they post and can't "decode" which should be a piece of cake for even a moderately qualified translator. They are not questions related to any specific subject-matter, but merely subject to translator's skill to break down an English noun phrase ( I'm talking about pairs with English as a source language). Not having this skill in translation is like not knowing math in professional programming.
Where does it stop? Well, I thin... See more By far, my favorites are noun phrases and syntagms that they post and can't "decode" which should be a piece of cake for even a moderately qualified translator. They are not questions related to any specific subject-matter, but merely subject to translator's skill to break down an English noun phrase ( I'm talking about pairs with English as a source language). Not having this skill in translation is like not knowing math in professional programming.
Where does it stop? Well, I think it's a vicious circle of $ 0.05 translators and $0.01 editors. ▲ Collapse
| | | | Desdemone (X)
Local time: 22:29
French to English
| Second time around (first try got squashed!) | Mar 2, 2010 |
Rob Grayson wrote:
I believe the problem has become/is becoming worse than previous posts suggest. It is not limited to askers posting questions on specialised terminology with which they ought to be familiar before accepting jobs; far from it. There are increasingly frequent questions posted (and as "Pro" questions to boot) on the most basic of words and expressions with which any speaker of the source language ought to be familiar, let alone any half-competent translator. I could point you to half a dozen such questions that have been posted in my language pair today. One can only conclude that certain individuals are marketing their services as professional translators while lacking the most basic understanding of the language(s) with which they are working. Note that those concerned are often, but by no means exclusively, translating into a non-native language.
What is equally striking is the number of answers and the amount of discussion that is often triggered by such shockingly easy questions. If one dares to suggest that the question is rather easy, the riposte often comes back that the question would not have generated so much response if it were so easy. Could it instead be the case that most of those responding are themselves only capable of working at the most basic level?
This dumbing-down process, as measured by the incidence of embarrassingly easy KudoZ questions, seems to have accelerated rapidly in the last year.
Rob
And today's posts in the French-English list bear this out eloquently. Additionally, it seems many "translators" are unfamiliar with the concept of context, posting bits and pieces, sentence fragments, items from list, and so on, and clearly haven't taken the least time to google a term, let alone look in the dictionary.
| | | | | Dictionary translation...? | Mar 2, 2010 |
Just a question of curiosity to the community: what would you think if someone translating a dictionary started flooding Kudoz with terminology questions, one after the other? I actually watched this happen some time ago. Initially, I thought that it was just like any translation job, but the more I thought about it, the more sceptical I got...
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Andrea Hauer
Germany
Local time: 03:29
English to German
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| Where is the beef? | Mar 2, 2010 |
I just don't understand this discussion. Four questions? abuse? I just don't get the clue of such discussion, sorry.
What about beginners who naturally can't specialize in this or that field but who are just sorting out ... (as I have done 10 years ago, translating nearly everything within the first year after my diploma (once about a chicken farm, I keep it in paper as "horrible souvenir I mean I know what a chicken is and ... See more I just don't understand this discussion. Four questions? abuse? I just don't get the clue of such discussion, sorry.
What about beginners who naturally can't specialize in this or that field but who are just sorting out ... (as I have done 10 years ago, translating nearly everything within the first year after my diploma (once about a chicken farm, I keep it in paper as "horrible souvenir I mean I know what a chicken is and the taste when having it in my oven, but that's all)
And what about an abuser like me? I am specializing in financial translations.
So what ... if there are within 50 pages of an annual report 4 sentences about a pharmaceutical company? (that happens quite often). Isn't that wonderful that I can ask these questions via proZ to the experts in this field? This is - for me!! - what proZ stands for (help under peers)! Nobody's obliged to answer anyway ...
Live and let live!!
Best regards,
Andrea
[Edited at 2010-03-02 21:47 GMT]
[Edited at 2010-03-02 21:49 GMT]
[Edited at 2010-03-02 21:50 GMT]
[Edited at 2010-03-02 23:29 GMT]
[Edited at 2010-03-02 23:30 GMT]
[Edited at 2010-03-02 23:37 GMT] ▲ Collapse
| | | | | mandatory certification? | Mar 2, 2010 |
Anya Lester wrote:
In my opinion the reason for this problem lies in a blurry situation with certification. If we had a good system of certification then subject matter expertise for each translator would be supported by an official document and better defined and prices were justified.
Do you mean certification must be mandatory? I already have my translation diploma and it should be enough. Any other certifications should be voluntary. Being a translator is a profession, like being a medic, lawyer or engineer. A translator specializes in translation, a medic in medicine, and so on. Yes, I have my preferred fields of expertise but I also love this profession because there is always a chance to learn something new. Introducing a mandatory translator division is inappropriate.
[Edited at 2010-03-02 21:49 GMT]
| | | | Claudio Porcellana (X)
Italy
| If there is a surprise in the job ... | Mar 2, 2010 |
it happens very seldom, as I deeply check documents before, and my customers know very well what I can do
anyway, if these portions are very limited, I do some research by myself: I have tons of books, magazines, dictionaries and references, and I'm quite skilled in web searches
if these portions are predominant, I ask to my client to find a more skilled peer and/or to have a reviser/proofreader on standby, and I've never lost a customer for this reason, quite the oppo... See more it happens very seldom, as I deeply check documents before, and my customers know very well what I can do
anyway, if these portions are very limited, I do some research by myself: I have tons of books, magazines, dictionaries and references, and I'm quite skilled in web searches
if these portions are predominant, I ask to my client to find a more skilled peer and/or to have a reviser/proofreader on standby, and I've never lost a customer for this reason, quite the opposite!
Claudio ▲ Collapse
| | | | DZiW (X)
Ukraine
English to Russian
+ ...
Do you really think that some standardized certification will make question more 'certified' or even eliminate KudoZ? Don't you get that a 'clever' question from someone may seem 'silly' to another? And what are the requirements, I wonder?
I understand that sometimes KudoZ is not the best reliable authority, but at least it can set the right direction. Considering voluntary participation I see no crime here: if you know it and have some spare time then give your answer; like as not,... See more Do you really think that some standardized certification will make question more 'certified' or even eliminate KudoZ? Don't you get that a 'clever' question from someone may seem 'silly' to another? And what are the requirements, I wonder?
I understand that sometimes KudoZ is not the best reliable authority, but at least it can set the right direction. Considering voluntary participation I see no crime here: if you know it and have some spare time then give your answer; like as not, one day someone will be able to answer yours. It's just a term or a phrase. Wanna job? Then you can show your proficiency via KudoZ, if any.
Anyway, it is not worth the aggro it causes IMO)
P.S. A friend of mine is no translator- he's just a MCSA, yet he can easily make many good professional translators with IT specialization feel like mere silly children. I wish such profi answered KudoZ. ▲ Collapse
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smhst57
Local time: 18:29
Russian to English
| 4 questions does not seem out of line | Mar 3, 2010 |
I can understand the potential for abuse of the Kudoz system and all users ought to be cognizant of the degree to which they might be taking advantage of the system, but this particular situation does not sound like it constitutes cause for alarm. If someone were posting 4 or more questions every day about similar topics, then I would be reluctant to continue helping. But as others here have noted, we don't know whether the 4 questions came from a 100,000 word document or 1,000 word document. ... See more I can understand the potential for abuse of the Kudoz system and all users ought to be cognizant of the degree to which they might be taking advantage of the system, but this particular situation does not sound like it constitutes cause for alarm. If someone were posting 4 or more questions every day about similar topics, then I would be reluctant to continue helping. But as others here have noted, we don't know whether the 4 questions came from a 100,000 word document or 1,000 word document. We don't know whether she is checking herself after days of work and research or whether she was simply using the forum to get away with not doing research. My inclination would be to give her the benefit of the doubt. All answers are posted voluntarily--if you suspect your expertise is being taken advantage of, then don't answer.
As for me, I am new to this site and to professional translation--answering the questions is not only interesting, but it is a way to demonstrate that I am a capable translator. For those well-established in the field, Kudoz points don't make any difference, for those trying to build their clientele, it is a good way to boost visibility. The system is not perfect, but then again, is anything? ▲ Collapse
| | | | | I strongly disagree | Mar 3, 2010 |
Anya Lester wrote:
In my opinion the reason for this problem lies in a blurry situation with certification. If we had a good system of certification then subject matter expertise for each translator would be supported by an official document and better defined and prices were justified. If there is no official certification for Engineering Translators (Medical Translators, Marketing Translators, etc.) there is nothing that precludes incompetent people from advertising any services whatsoever. If we had better certification with official rules both for translators and purchasers, we would not be facing such chaos with low pricing and low quality!
I am a technical translator and not so much because of my educational background (Spanish and Math degrees) but because I understand what is going on. I translate a lot of material related to completely new products, etc. No certification in the world will help with this. My experience and avid reading ensures that I can do these types of translations.
Certification is no guarantee of high-quality translation. It just means that we can tick the boxes.
The reason for the low pricing and low quality is because:
1. We operate in a free market.
2. We are not organised in some way.
3. We allow it to happen (me included).
Instead of worrying about what other translators do or do not do, we should concentrate on getting our own house in order. Work on your own skills to improve and, thus, corner a bigger slice of the pie.
| | | | Krzysztof Kajetanowicz (X)
Poland
Local time: 03:29
English to Polish
+ ...
Per Bergvall wrote:
... surely one solution would be to outsource it to a colleague? The alternative of posting the surprise as a Kudoz queston is an obvious course of action, but where should it stop?
And what if there's no time to outsource those four proverbial sentences, or when you're contractually prohibited to do so?
In my view, it stops where the answers stop. There's nothing fundamentally wrong with the Kudoz system.
| | | | | Agree with Marijke | Mar 3, 2010 |
Marijke Singer wrote: Anya Lester wrote:
In my opinion the reason for this problem lies in a blurry situation with certification. If we had a good system of certification then subject matter expertise for each translator would be supported by an official document and better defined and prices were justified. If there is no official certification for Engineering Translators (Medical Translators, Marketing Translators, etc.) there is nothing that precludes incompetent people from advertising any services whatsoever. If we had better certification with official rules both for translators and purchasers, we would not be facing such chaos with low pricing and low quality! I am a technical translator and not so much because of my educational background (Spanish and Math degrees) but because I understand what is going on. I translate a lot of material related to completely new products, etc. No certification in the world will help with this. My experience and avid reading ensures that I can do these types of translations. Certification is no guarantee of high-quality translation. It just means that we can tick the boxes. The reason for the low pricing and low quality is because: 1. We operate in a free market. 2. We are not organised in some way. 3. We allow it to happen (me included). Instead of worrying about what other translators do or do not do, we should concentrate on getting our own house in order. Work on your own skills to improve and, thus, corner a bigger slice of the pie.
I wholeheartedly agree to what Marijke wrote above. I am one of those translators who don't have any certification, but I've been in this business for over 20 years. And I am strongly skeptical about having degrees or certifications in translations, since they prove nothing except that that person studied translating. I know that some outsourcers ask for credentials when they post a job, but what does that prove? Experience is what counts. There may be guidebooks for every career you can imagine, doctors, nurses, policemen, firemen, teachers, etc. but not everything is written in the guidebooks, so they must also learn as they go along, and translators are no exception.
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Edward Vreeburg
Netherlands
Local time: 03:29
Member (2008)
English to Dutch
+ ...
| it's not just 4 questions... | Mar 3, 2010 |
Some of these people have litereally hundreds of questions in various fields like IT, pharmaceuticals, chemical etc and they ask 10 or so per project (you can see them every week). When looking at their details, they do not list those subjects in their competences but they do advertise with cheap rates!
I often look at the number of questions asked, rated and closed withouth grading compared to the answers given, if I find it's out of proportion (they only ask, ask and ask some more... See more Some of these people have litereally hundreds of questions in various fields like IT, pharmaceuticals, chemical etc and they ask 10 or so per project (you can see them every week). When looking at their details, they do not list those subjects in their competences but they do advertise with cheap rates!
I often look at the number of questions asked, rated and closed withouth grading compared to the answers given, if I find it's out of proportion (they only ask, ask and ask some more) and they have rates which are far below the market standards - I simply blacklist them.
Why should I help competitors who are destroying the market, and seem to be quite incompetent to get the right translations for their clients?????
For any other colleages I will always try and find the best possible answer, even if they are direct competitors. (as I know they will do for me)
Abuse or not - it's simply not smart for your own business to help people who steal your work.
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Ed ▲ Collapse
| | | | liz askew
United Kingdom
Local time: 02:29
Member (2007)
French to English
+ ...
| Lots of moans | Mar 3, 2010 |
Hi
Lots of moans and groans about Proz users etc....
Personally I think the structure of the Proz site is excellent. As for points, I am not against them. If somebody bothers to take the time to help another colleague, then what is wrong with awarding points? We don't get money as a reward, so points are just fine.
Nobody has a gun in your back. You don't have to answer any queries or help any colleagues, but this is defeating the whole object of the e... See more Hi
Lots of moans and groans about Proz users etc....
Personally I think the structure of the Proz site is excellent. As for points, I am not against them. If somebody bothers to take the time to help another colleague, then what is wrong with awarding points? We don't get money as a reward, so points are just fine.
Nobody has a gun in your back. You don't have to answer any queries or help any colleagues, but this is defeating the whole object of the existence of Proz.
If you have a problem with a particular colleague who keeps posting queries (I think I have only come across one in my travels) then filter that colleague out and don't answer their query.
Sure, it makes us all feel better having a moan, but ultimately each one of us is in control of our own actions, so if a colleague's postings bother you, don't get involved with them. Spend more time perfecting your own translations and work.
Liz Askew ▲ Collapse
| | | | A. Deb
Spain
Local time: 03:29
Member
Spanish to English
+ ...
| We've all been there | Mar 3, 2010 |
Nobody was born a translator or an expert in a field. Can't you remember ever taking on a translation where you felt out of your depth or, as others have mentioned, coming across a term or two (or four) that you are unfamiliar with in your own field? It also does depend on how long the translation is. Some people leave the four terms that they don't know right until the end of the translation and post them together. I do this myself. I have been translating for many years and run a successf... See more Nobody was born a translator or an expert in a field. Can't you remember ever taking on a translation where you felt out of your depth or, as others have mentioned, coming across a term or two (or four) that you are unfamiliar with in your own field? It also does depend on how long the translation is. Some people leave the four terms that they don't know right until the end of the translation and post them together. I do this myself. I have been translating for many years and run a successful business and am not ashamed to admit that I am learning new things all the time and value the help received through Kudoz.
I personally don't feel insulted or undercut if somebody has taken on a job that I feel that I could have done better be it at a higher rate. It's a free market in which we all have to market ourselves and survive. Better translators will inevitably get better references and repeat clients.
In any case, a translation is not just made up of terms so helping out a colleague who has taken on a translation for whatever reason (be it as mundane as to feed their children, to pay their rent or to simply gain valuable experience) is no hardship to me.
The beauty of this site and this community is that we can all help each other. Then again, not everyone uses this site in this way. ▲ Collapse
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