| Pages in topic: < [1 2 3 4] | Voters for pro/non-pro should also provide an answer or peer comment Thread poster: jacana54 (X)
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| Ruffled feathers and The Emperor's New Clothes | Sep 3, 2010 |
Neil Coffey wrote:
One measure that springs to mind to stop some of the backbiting might be to just assume that if a paid member posts a question, that questions is automatically PRO and cannot be voted as non-PRO.
Or are people really paying a hundred dollars a year to find out how to say "I love you" in another language...?
Wow. So paying members of Proz are sublimely "pro" and their questions should be pro too.
Hmm let's see. What "qualifications" or even "translations skills" are needed to become a paying member? Oh, yes. Have a bank account, a PayPal account or even a credit card. And know how to make online payments. Definitely need to be an experienced skilled translator for that..... Paying just confirms what everyone already knows: I am a PRO!!!
Nonsense aside, what constitutes a genuine pro question (in the real world)?
For instance, what does a question from a pro translator look like? Well, imo, it's one for which translators do their own research, spend time and thought on possible answers, check all possible resources and only THEN do they consider bothering fellow translators with a Kudoz question. Naturally that question is very likely a difficult one (a "pro" question) because if it were easy, it wouldn't be asked. That IS how things work here, right? Or only "paying" members work like that..... right?
The Emperor's New Clothes.
So many ruffled feathers. Incensed that people DARE vote non-pro for a question that THEY ask or answer (After all, no one complains, rants, raves, gets their knickers in a twist and/or reports on colleagues if a question is voted Pro, do they?-or have I missed something).
So fine. Kudoz questions are basically Pro, especially if they are asked by a paying member.
So let's call all questions pro. And all these gloriously pro questions will be a fine addition to the Emperor's new wardrobe.
| | | | David BUICK 
Local time: 12:46
Member (2006)
French to English
+ ...
| Don't confuse arguments about "pro" with observing the rules | Sep 3, 2010 |
There are at least two distinct issues here, really.
One is what should or should not constitute a "pro" question.
For the record, I presently think the KudoZ definition is not a good one and that the whole pro/non-pro distinction should be scrapped. I think it's near impossible to come to a consensus about what a 'professional' translator is, let alone what a 'professional' questiontranslator is, let alone what a 'professional' question is, and that that, to switch metaphors, is the elephant in the room here.
Another, separate question is whether users are prepared to follow the rules. Which, as things stand, mean voting 'non-pro' solely on the grounds that the question could be spontaneously (and presumably accurately) answered by any normal bilingual person (the argument being that such a circumstance should be so obvious to all that there is no debate necessary as to the 'pro' or 'non-pro' status).
Part of my contribution to the debate here has been to contest the rule as it stands. But part has been because I don't think the rules are always adhered to and that this is detrimental to the community.
I've just gone on record as disliking this rule as it stands, but there it is. I can live with it. The benefits I have from KudoZ outweigh the drawbacks of the rule, so you are still stuck with me. And since the rule is there, I think it's in the interest of board harmony to abide by it in the meantime (while of course having all the arguments one could wish for about it here, in the appropriate forum).
In fact, it could be argued that being able to abide by rules even when one has issues with them is just as much an indication of professionalism as the particular type of question one asks.
[Edited at 2010-09-03 19:10 GMT]
[Edited at 2010-09-03 20:05 GMT] ▲ Collapse
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Eutychus wrote:
In fact, it could be argued that being able to abide by rules even when one has issues with them is just as much an indication of professionalism as the particular type of question one asks.
| | | | | Voting a question PRO or non-PRO is simply a message to the asker. | Sep 3, 2010 |
The first means "Actually, this is a bit more complicated than you think". The second means "Use your brain, or if's taken the day off today, look it up in a dictionary".
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Neil Coffey
United Kingdom
Local time: 11:46
French to English
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| The rationale... | Sep 3, 2010 |
writeaway wrote: Neil Coffey wrote:
One measure that springs to mind to stop some of the backbiting might be to just assume that if a paid member posts a question, that questions is automatically PRO and cannot be voted as non-PRO.
Or are people really paying a hundred dollars a year to find out how to say "I love you" in another language...?
Wow. So paying members of Proz are sublimely "pro" and their questions should be pro too. Hmm let's see. What "qualifications" or even "translations skills" are needed to become a paying member? Oh, yes. Have a bank account, a PayPal account or even a credit card. And know how to make online payments. Definitely need to be an experienced skilled translator for that..... Paying just confirms what everyone already knows: I am a PRO!!!
I think the logic is more like this:
- on the whole, people who pay for a ProZ membership will be people with a "serious" interets in translation;
- on the whole, people with a "serious" interest in translation will not be posting questions of the "I love you" kind, and will have a more-than-average idea of whether a particular term could be answered by any random bilingual.
Ergo, on the whole, there are unlikely to be many grounds for calling into question a paying member's decision about whether a particular term can be answered by any random bilingual or not.
Incidentally (and implied in what I've just said), I do agree that paid members should be able to deliberately classify their own question as non-PRO if they wish.
writeaway wrote:
For instance, what does a question from a pro translator look like? Well, imo, it's one for which translators do their own research, spend time and thought on possible answers, check all possible resources and only THEN do they consider bothering fellow translators with a Kudoz question. Naturally that question is very likely a difficult one (a "pro" question) because if it were easy, it wouldn't be asked. That IS how things work here, right? Or only "paying" members work like that..... right?
It's not that ONLY paying members work like that, it's just that by law of averages, if you take just the subset of members who have paid, the majority of that subset probably are "linguistically sensitive" enough to make the PRO/non-PRO decision. Of the other subset comprising non-paying members, I'm not saying that they are or aren't as linguistically sensitive, I'm saying that we make no judgement about that subset of members.
(N.B. That's strictly what this is about -- it's not actually about research skills etc.)
[Edited at 2010-09-03 20:49 GMT]
[Edited at 2010-09-03 20:50 GMT]
| | | | David BUICK
Local time: 12:46
Member (2006)
French to English
+ ...
| Phil: that might be what you think, but it's not what the rules say | Sep 3, 2010 |
philgoddard wrote:
The first means "Actually, this is a bit more complicated than you think". The second means "Use your brain, or if's taken the day off today, look it up in a dictionary".
As to your "first" ('vote pro' I presume), I don't think I've ever seen a question marked by the asker as non-pro.
As to your "second" ('vote non-pro' I presume), while I feel your pain, if you read back up this thread you will see that this is emphatically not what "vote non-pro" means according to the rules (and I have to ask myself - why don't you just scroll past such a question?).
I may not like the way the rules define "non-pro", but I'm definitely opposed to that option being exercised in the way you suggest.
For one thing, it's basically a way of claiming superiority - and, as things stand and as argued by me ad nauseam above, doing so without having to supply any reasons whatsoever. Besides abusing the button, as I've said I think it's detrimental to the community.
For another, as often as not (as this question and its aftermath amply demonstrates - already referred to above but worth quoting again since it's also in your language pair) voting like this can have a boomerang effect. As often as not it transpires that the question was actually a lot more complicated than the "non-pro" voters thought. Doesn't that make their 'non-pro' voting 'non-pro'?
[Edited at 2010-09-03 20:57 GMT]
[Edited at 2010-09-03 20:58 GMT]
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