| Pages in topic: < [1 2] | What do you think of this debate on language use? Thread poster: Zolboo Batbold
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Michael Newton 
United States
Local time: 17:45
Japanese to English
+ ...
Discourse and discourse analysis are important linguistic tools especially for Japanese which has different levels of familiarity and honorifics. One must be conscious of the other person's social status and the speaker's relation to that person.
I once heard a shopkeeper tell his son to accept money from a customer. He said: "Kane itadaki nasai" "Kane" ("money") an ordinary from instead of "okane" (a more honorific form); "idataku" (to receive from a person from a higher status or in t... See more Discourse and discourse analysis are important linguistic tools especially for Japanese which has different levels of familiarity and honorifics. One must be conscious of the other person's social status and the speaker's relation to that person.
I once heard a shopkeeper tell his son to accept money from a customer. He said: "Kane itadaki nasai" "Kane" ("money") an ordinary from instead of "okane" (a more honorific form); "idataku" (to receive from a person from a higher status or in this case an honored customer) but using "itadaki nasai" (a form used to his son who the shopkeeper is ordering about). Several levels have been ingeniously combined in a single utterance. There is also a bit of irony here in combining "usual speech", "honorific speech" and "speaking to a person with lower status" (the son). The shopkeeper is being polite but not overly polite. I'm sure the customer was not offended.
I once saw a death notice indicating "Mr. Kato died" It turned out "Kato-san takai itasaremashita". In other words, he went to the other world ("takai)'. Itasu is used when one is doing something or in this case announcing something to the public which is deserving of respect. Rather than say "itashimashita", it turns out "itasaremashita". (Ita-saremashita). "saremashita" is used as an honorific in this case showing respect to the deceased. So "ita-saremashita" indicates both downward (humble) and upward (honorific) speech all combined in one.
Our Mongolian colleague would seem to be light years ahead of some of the posters here in his comprehension of certain linguistic realms. ▲ Collapse
| | | | Zolboo Batbold
Italy
Local time: 23:45
Member (2021)
English to Mongolian
+ ...
TOPIC STARTER SITE LOCALIZER | That's not the point | Mar 2, 2022 |
Mihai Badea wrote:
"Publish or perish", a diction that any member of academia would know. There is indeed great pressure on researchers to publish. Obviously, not everything that is published is of extraordinary quality.
There might be researchers in the world - including Mongolian, who have no idea of the various ways dictionaries define their field of study. What matters is whether they create new knowledge that ideally is of high quality.
Dictionaries are authoritative. However, they are unlikely to be perfect. They reflect the use at a certain moment.
If you are interested in how dictionaries are designed and elaborated, you might want to read a book on lexicography (e.g. The Oxford Handbook of Lexicography).
It seems you didn't grasp the main point, or maybe I phrased it badly. Anyway, this guy believes that not much has been accomplished in the scientific field lately in Mongolia. So in an attempt to prove his point, he looked up the definition of research in a modern dictionary, and said "Look, the very definitions suck, no wonder we're not making any progress, people don't know what research means!" He then compared the definition to the one in Cambridge Dictionary, and said "See, the English speakers have a much better understanding of the concept of research compared to us".
Well, little did he know that the Cambridge Dictionary definitions are based on empirical evidence (use of huge language data to study word frequency, collocations etc..), whereas the definitions in the Mongolian dictonary is not based on empirical evidence, but rather on intuitions, and anecdotal evidence.
| | | | Michael Newton
United States
Local time: 17:45
Japanese to English
+ ...
| debate on language use | Mar 2, 2022 |
For those of you who would like to munch on something intellectually, I can recommend the following
(1) Text, Discourse and Corpora, Theory and Analysis by Michael Hoey
(2) Emotive Talk Across Corpora by Monika Bednarek
(3) Using Corpora in Discourse Analysis by Paul Baer
(4) Advanced Discourse Analysis of Translation and Interpretation by Jeremy Munday
(5) Discourse Pragmatics, the Verb, The Evidence from the Romance by Suzanne Fleischmann
(6) las Cosas del D... See more For those of you who would like to munch on something intellectually, I can recommend the following
(1) Text, Discourse and Corpora, Theory and Analysis by Michael Hoey
(2) Emotive Talk Across Corpora by Monika Bednarek
(3) Using Corpora in Discourse Analysis by Paul Baer
(4) Advanced Discourse Analysis of Translation and Interpretation by Jeremy Munday
(5) Discourse Pragmatics, the Verb, The Evidence from the Romance by Suzanne Fleischmann
(6) las Cosas del Decir: Manual de analisis del discurso by Helena Calsamiglia
(7) Discurso y Salud (analisis de un debato social) by Antonio Miguel Banon Hernandez
Discourse? Well, it's speech, right? ▲ Collapse
| | | | Mihai Badea (X)
Luxembourg
Local time: 23:45
English to Romanian
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| Just out of curiosity | Mar 2, 2022 |
Zolboo,
Would you be able to provide, in English, the two dictionary definitions, and perhaps also the definition compiled by your historian friend?
And for fairness, why not even invite him/her to this discussion.
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Zolboo Batbold
Italy
Local time: 23:45
Member (2021)
English to Mongolian
+ ...
TOPIC STARTER SITE LOCALIZER | Not interested | Mar 2, 2022 |
Mihai Badea wrote:
Zolboo,
Would you be able to provide, in English, the two dictionary definitions, and perhaps also the definition compiled by your historian friend?
And for fairness, why not even invite him/her to this discussion.
Nah, he couldn't care. The definitions are not important. What matters is you simply can't compare a corpus-based dictionary (such as the Cambridge) to a dictionary which is not based on corpus, but relies on intuitions and anecdotal evidence. You are comparing rifles to pistols (sorry, couldn't find a better metaphor ) Which one is more accurate?
| | | | Mihai Badea (X)
Luxembourg
Local time: 23:45
English to Romanian
+ ...
| First dictionary, first corpus | Mar 3, 2022 |
Zolboo Batbold wrote: Nah, he couldn't care. The definitions are not important. What matters is you simply can't compare a corpus-based dictionary (such as the Cambridge) to a dictionary which is not based on corpus, but relies on intuitions and anecdotal evidence. You are comparing rifles to pistols (sorry, couldn't find a better metaphor ) Which one is more accurate?
Corpora make things easier and, most likely, more accurate. Field interviews might still be necessary, though, for a truly comprehensive dictionary.
If you ask me, the corpora discussion is very relevant for the translators.
CAT manufacturers found a way to easily connect the piece of software to machine translation.
But imagine a corpus connection. Like, in a window, you can see a richness of sentences similar to the one you are working on.
That is the next step in translation technology. The first mover will have a tremendous advantage, provided they can already point to a provider of high quality specialised corpora.
Which by the way, [the corpora] are not that difficult to create, although it might be necessary to pay some - possibly no so very exorbitant - copyrights.
Boom!
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