| Pages in topic: < [1 2 3 4] > | What language do they speak in Scotland? Thread poster: Monika Rozwarzewska
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Ricki Farn
Germany
Local time: 20:26
English to German
| Can we hear the opinion of an Ancient Roman on this? | Jul 18, 2006 |
Giovanni,
Italian and French are bad Latin, whereas English is a bad hodgepodge of Celtic, Germanic, Viking, French, Latin and can't remember what else ... where does "bad" end and "new" or "different" begin?
(Don't shoot please )
| | | | Richard Creech 
United States
Local time: 14:26
French to English
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| A Metaphysical Matter | Jul 18, 2006 |
Ricki Farn wrote: Giovanni, Italian and French are bad Latin, whereas English is a bad hodgepodge of Celtic, Germanic, Viking, French, Latin and can't remember what else ... where does "bad" end and "new" or "different" begin? (Don't shoot please )
You hit the proverbial nail on its head. "Good" and "bad" don't describe real attributes, but rather the relative perception (illusion?) of the one who uses them. Or as Hamlet remarked, "there is nothing good or bad but thinking makes it so."
And I suppose one could say that Latin is "bad" Proto-Indo-European
[Edited at 2006-07-18 18:05]
| | | | Textklick
Local time: 19:26
German to English
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In memoriam | What is spoken | Jul 19, 2006 |
Richard Creech wrote:
There are three indigenous languages spoken in Scotland:
I disagree here.
To answer your question clearly, Monika, I’d say two languages.
From a linguist’s point of view, I think it’s not unimportant to consider which language(s) the people in the country under discussion actually speak, and which ones the media use. In the case of Scotland, http://www.bbc.co.uk/scotland/ confirms indeed that English and Gaelic are those two languages. In Scotland, by far the majority of the population (over 90%) speak English, with the odd word of Scots thrown in, and flavoured with a regional accent. (For some amusement, check out the comics (which I believe are known as “funny papers” in the U.S.A.) such as http://www.thatsbraw.co.uk/.)
The venerable Scots language had input from some of the sources quoted above by others. It was in use since time immemorial on the street, in folk music, literature and poetry (indeed you do not have to go far to encounter the words of the Scottish poet Robert Burns: http://www.proz.com/topic/51396.)
I believe that the reason why the Scottish Parliament chose to provide the so-called “Scots” option at http://www.scottish.parliament.uk/vli/language/scots/index.htm was partly “a bit of fun” and partly a display of “attitude”. Which particular form of “Scots” is this written in, one could very well ask? Indeed, I am not fully convinced that is the original Scots language.
Like any other regional “English” dialects, those spoken in Scotland of course vary in comprehensibility, according to geographical and socio-demographical criteria. The accent ranges from the charmingly alluring to the desperately convincing, depending upon the geographical location, the interlocutor and the circumstances. As Kim points out, there are words that will immediately identify a Scot. (Having been witness to discussions between him and a Scotsman within a “Prozian” environment, I can confirm the validity of his statement.)
In the North and especially the "Highlands and Islands" http://www.hie.co.uk/about-our-area.html, where there are many Gaelic speakers, you will find that people tend to speak beautifully clear English, since English is their second language. There is a much less stronger accent to be heard there than in genteel Edinburgh, to say nothing of the allegedly less-genteel Glasgow.
Like RobinB, I was born in Scotland, educated in England and I subscribe fully to his “long live diversity” viewpoint.
As for Richard, I have the impression that he has only visited Scotland from cyberspace (and apologise profusely should this not be the case). Nevertheless, I strongly counsel him to re-examine his (“right/wrong”) spelling of the word Scottish. Such errors could give rise to “strong disagreement” in “genteel Edinburgh”. In the “allegedly less-genteel Glasgow” – where right and wrong are seldom perceived as being "metaphysical concepts" – he could indeed get “chibbed”.
An ye widnae want that, pal.
[Edited at 2006-07-19 09:11]
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[quote]Richard Creech wrote:
"There are three indigenous languages spoken in Scotland: English, Scots, and Scots Gaelic."
Reading this rubbish written with such pretentious authority by someone from the other side of the world made me feel like I was being told to "Sit up stright!" by the Hunchback of Notredame.
There are two languages spoken in Scotland:
English and Gaelic.
And that's yer lot! Unless you want to start counting Polish, Albanian, Czech etc just for political correctness.
BTW Robert Burns wrote much stuff in a dialect called Doric which is long dead and it's questionable if it was ever "alive".
No more speculative nonsense please!
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| Sean Connery | Jul 19, 2006 |
still has a Scottish accent.
For many years, you could hear Sean's voice on the answering machine of the Scottish Nationalist Party (I think that was the correct name).
His membership number? 007, of course.
| | | | Richard Creech
United States
Local time: 14:26
French to English
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| Why so Angry, and with Such Little Cause? | Jul 19, 2006 |
Gareth McMillan wrote:
Reading this rubbish written with such pretentious authority by someone from the other side of the world made me feel like I was being told to "Sit up stright!" by the Hunchback of Notredame.
There are two languages spoken in Scotland:
English and Gaelic.
...
No more speculative nonsense please!
What is truly sad here is that you feel a need to engage in ad hominem attacks and you seem to have so little regard (or perhaps you are just unaware of) the scholarship and research in this area. Most linguists, pretentious and otherwise, consider Scots to be its own language, just as they consider Italian and French to be different languages. This is the position of the European Bureau of Lesser-Used Languages (which is primarily funded by the European Union)and the Scottish government as well. Your childish sniping and inappropriate analogies are no substitute for scholarly discourse. Moreover, speakers of minority languages do not deserve the disdainful treatment that you are meting out, and the denial of their existence is particularly offensive to the millions of people who speak Scots in their daily lives. I expect there are some speakers of this language who belong to proz.com (although they may have internalized the British government's marginalization of their language and may be themselves convinced that it is simply "bad" English), and I invite comment from them.
[Edited at 2006-07-19 18:43]
| | | | | Not angry, Richard just fed up with "scholarly" ignorance | Jul 19, 2006 |
"What is truly sad here is that you feel a need to engage in ad hominem attacks and you seem to have so little regard (or perhaps you are just unaware of) the scholarship and research in this area. Most linguists, pretentious and otherwise, consider Scots to be its own language"
Richard, your "ad hominem" reply beats mine by a mile- wat's the matter- can't take a bit of criticism?
Having based your argument on a faundamentally erroneous concept, you are now resorting t... See more "What is truly sad here is that you feel a need to engage in ad hominem attacks and you seem to have so little regard (or perhaps you are just unaware of) the scholarship and research in this area. Most linguists, pretentious and otherwise, consider Scots to be its own language"
Richard, your "ad hominem" reply beats mine by a mile- wat's the matter- can't take a bit of criticism?
Having based your argument on a faundamentally erroneous concept, you are now resorting to a cyberspace googling style of intellectualism and personal attack to back it up.
There is NO SUCH language as Scots - ask any sane-minded, half-educated Scotsman (and there are none in the Scottish Parliament,btw).
Why can't you just admit you're wrong?
Any language is first and foremost the property of those who learned to speak it at their mother's breast IMVHO.
The "Scots language" is a myth to rival that of the Loch Ness Monster. At best it is a local accent with a very few unusual words thown in - to call it even a dialect is absurd!
By what holy charter have you so-called scholars claimed the right to tell us otherwise?
I find the arrogance and complete ignorance of the subject you display here quite insufferable.
But..
I'm sorry if I offended you, what I write is just my non-scholarly opinion based on a lifetime's experience having been educated to a high standard in that country (including studying law at Aberdeen University where many of my Gaelic peers spoke English as their second languge).
However I have certainly not offended any of the "millions of people who speak Scots in their daily lives" (you wrote), as there are no speakers of Scots in Scotland...
[Edited at 2006-07-19 19:46] ▲ Collapse
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| It may be a language, but no-one speaks it here | Jul 20, 2006 |
Hiya,
Just throwing my 2 cents (or should that perhaps be pennies?) into this somewhat heated discussion. There seems to be a divide emerging between those who have practical knowledge of the languages used in Scotland, and those who have a theoretical knowledge of same. I belong to the "practical" camp.
As a Scot living in Scotland (Inverness), I can assure you that I speak English. This is my first language, with German being my second, French my third and Russian my fourth.... See more Hiya,
Just throwing my 2 cents (or should that perhaps be pennies?) into this somewhat heated discussion. There seems to be a divide emerging between those who have practical knowledge of the languages used in Scotland, and those who have a theoretical knowledge of same. I belong to the "practical" camp.
As a Scot living in Scotland (Inverness), I can assure you that I speak English. This is my first language, with German being my second, French my third and Russian my fourth. But I digress. I speak English with the Scottish (two "t's" please!) accent of the Western lowlands where I and my parents were brought up, less than 10 miles from where Robert Burns spent his life. My idiolect contains many words which Burns would have understood, including the popular "wee" and "aye", which I (and all my Scottish friends and relatives) use in everyday speech. These are Scots words. Our conversations do not, however, include such lines as "will ye tak a right guid-willie waught?", a line which many Scots will recognise from Auld Lang Syne, but would most likely greet with "wha'?" Instead, we'd say "Would you like a wee dram?". This sentence, being a clear mixture of English and Scots phrasing, is representative of the code-switching used by (I would say every) Scot in everyday speech.
While there are obviously writers and aficionados of Scots who use it extensively in their works and campaign for its preservation, NO-ONE in modern Scotland speaks only Scots. They wouldn't be understood if they did, even by Burns scholars!
As I've already pointed out, much of current Scottish speech is heavily-accented English, with (more or fewer depending on the individual speaker) Scots (Doric or Lallans depending on the region) words thrown in. I hope this helps.
[Edited at 2006-07-20 09:44] ▲ Collapse
| | | | | Slight diversion | Jul 20, 2006 |
The Texan legal establishment has been one of the major forces of discrimination against Texan; it is rumoured that some courts have even held Texan speakers in contempt for answering a question with "Who gone put tobasco in your oatmeal" instead of "Yes, your Honor".
That's contempt of court in anyone's language - nothing to do with discrimination!
| | | | Richard Creech
United States
Local time: 14:26
French to English
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| Multilingualism and Diglossia | Jul 20, 2006 |
Thank you Hilary for your comments. But your statement that "NO ONE in modern Scotland speaks only Scots" is something of a non sequitur. I never claimed that there were people who only spoke Scots. But the fact that they don't speak Scots exclusively does not mean that they don't speak Scots in addition to English, in certain situations and with certain individuals. There is an interesting parallel in Ireland, where language politics are even more heated than in Scotland. Apparently, and t... See more Thank you Hilary for your comments. But your statement that "NO ONE in modern Scotland speaks only Scots" is something of a non sequitur. I never claimed that there were people who only spoke Scots. But the fact that they don't speak Scots exclusively does not mean that they don't speak Scots in addition to English, in certain situations and with certain individuals. There is an interesting parallel in Ireland, where language politics are even more heated than in Scotland. Apparently, and the Irish government has said as much, there is no one in Ireland who only speaks Irish. That does not of course mean that no one speaks it at all(although not very many do), or that it is any less deserving of respect. The fact that no one is monolingual in a language is a sign of the totality of the subjugation of the particular linguistic group within a centralizing state that through an educational system, the media, and administrative structures has sought to impose a linguisitc and cultural homogeneity throughout its territory.
I note, by the way, that proz.com appears to recognize Scots as a separate language, although there is likely confusion about proz.com's nomenclature. In the directory section "Scots" is listed. I expect many might construe this as a reference to Scots Gaelic. There is, however, a separate listing for "Gaelic," which of course could be taken to refer to either Scots Gaelic or Irish, but there is a separate listing for "Irish." Perhaps a moderator could clarify what these listings refer to. ▲ Collapse
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Richard Creech
United States
Local time: 14:26
French to English
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