| Pages in topic: < [1 2 3 4] > | New system from a translation buyer's perspective Thread poster: a2ztranslate
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John Fossey 
Canada
Local time: 05:30
Member (2008)
French to English
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| A couple of comments: | Apr 5, 2010 |
a2ztranslate wrote:
take pride in paying on time (even when client goes bust!)
This is just normal business practice of a properly run business, not something special. Proper credit granting procedures plus a realistic allowance for bad debts means the translation merchant (that's what an agency is) can both fulfill his obligation to pay his suppliers on time AND maintain a tight running business at the same time.
An experienced translator can actually set a lower rate than a new translator, as the experienced translator will be able to complete more words per hour than a new translator, in order to achieve the target hourly/weekly income.
Why on earth would an experienced translator set a lower rate, whether per word or per hour?
I have a budget to work to. That is set by my client.
As others have mentioned, this must be the only industry where participants think the customer sets the price. The problem is lack of marketing skills - being confident in your ability to seek out and find good paying clients, so you can dump the ones that can't/won't pay the price required.
But in those marginal cases isn't it better that translators have the option to take on some work to fill in a gap in their schedule, even if it is less than their target rate?
No, as mentioned above what translators need to do is learn how to develop a better paying clientele that will keep them busy at their "target" rate.
So there will be less jobs on ProZ, so less translators will pay full fees, so slowly the portal will die.
I doubt it. The job posting system is probably not the main reason translators subscribe to ProZ.com.
[Edited at 2010-04-05 20:18 GMT]
| | | | apk12
Germany
Local time: 11:30
English to German
+ ...
John Fossey a2ztranslate wrote:So there will be less jobs on ProZ, so less translators will pay full fees, so slowly the portal will die. I doubt it. The job posting system is probably not the main reason translators subscribe to ProZ.com.
exactly. even more: there is quite a high probability that the job posting system is the problem, detracting professional translators from their next membership fee as long as it stays how it was and keeps developing where it was to.
we simply don't need a GAF2-portal.
[Edited at 2010-04-05 18:59 GMT]
| | | | Andrej
Local time: 15:30
Member (2005)
German to Russian
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| A good profile is much more important than job postings | Apr 5, 2010 |
Well, there are a lot of other opportunities to find customers outside of Proz.com. But as we are talking about Proz.com now, I can say that about 90 % of my customers I got here contacted me directly through my profile page. Sapienti sat.
| | | | | Agree with Andrej; most jobs go directly through the directory/profiles | Apr 5, 2010 |
Andrej wrote:
Well, there are a lot of other opportunities to find customers outside of Proz.com. But as we are talking about Proz.com now, I can say that about 90 % of my customers I got here contacted me directly through my profile page. Sapienti sat.
Thanks Andrej. Let me point out that this is the way most jobs are passed at ProZ.com, not through job postings. Of course, as you mention, a good profile (and membership) are at the heart of making that system work.
Regards,
Jared
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| I confirm. My best clients came from my ProZ profile | Apr 5, 2010 |
Andrej wrote:
Well, there are a lot of other opportunities to find customers outside of Proz.com. But as we are talking about Proz.com now, I can say that about 90 % of my customers I got here contacted me directly through my profile page. Sapienti sat.
All is in the title. I'll just add that I do not receive normal jobs alerts, but a lot of direct contacts through my profile.
Of course some are ... let's say "comical", but most of them are OK and lead to solid relationships.
Catherine
[Edited at 2010-04-05 20:14 GMT]
| | | | | Not all translators have low regard for agencies! | Apr 5, 2010 |
a2ztranslate wrote:
Kind of knew I was on a hiding to nothing when I made the post, so to be expected. It would seem that many of the respondents here have a very low opinion of agencies.
I just wanted to let you know that you are not without a friend among translators, a2ztranslate.
I'm glad you expressed your views. I think we need to hear from buyers, and I am doubtful that the proposed changes for the jobs board will be positive.
I'm a translator and share many of your views on how the market works. I put my two cents into a discussion at http://hun.proz.com/forum/prozcom_job_systems/161765-changes_to_be_made_to_the_job_posting_system-page2.html, where I felt some of the views there were also quite antagonistic toward agencies. Basically, they come from a different perspective than mine on how markets work.
I know that the petition that instigated the jobs board changes has stimulated a lot of discussion and even got some action. Kudos to the petitioners for getting themselves noticed and heard. But the petition does express only one viewpoint. I didn't know about the petition while it was circulating. If I had, though, I would not have signed it, because even though I do agree that the rates many agencies offer are often lower than I'd like, I think the petitioners' demands don't take realistic account of how markets work. My view.
I'm very glad the dialog is going, but I think more of it does need to involve input from buyers and I believe we need more voices in the mix if we wish to arrive at practical, realistic ways to address all parties' concerns in a way that is mutually satisfying and win-win.
| | | | John Fossey
Canada
Local time: 05:30
Member (2008)
French to English
+ ...
| There are all types of agencies | Apr 5, 2010 |
Deborah Workman wrote:
Not all translators have low regard for agencies!
BTW, I count some excellent agencies among my clients. Strangely, these tend not to have very many jobs posted here - in fact some have never heard of proz.com.
As in any field of endeavour, there are good agencies and then there are others. The good agencies have usually carved out a niche in the market that they can work in profitably at reasonable prices, have adequate finances and well managed business practices, and as a result are a pleasure to deal with.
| | | | | If I wrote that petition... | Apr 5, 2010 |
Deborah Workman wrote:
I didn't know about the petition while it was circulating. If I had, though, I would not have signed it, because even though I do agree that the rates many agencies offer are often lower than I'd like, I think the petitioners' demands don't take realistic account of how markets work. My view.
Me too. What I have suggested, long before that petition came up, somewhat improved by afterthoughts is that an outsourcer, upon selecting a language pair and before posting their rates would see a small table, maybe a popup with information like this (invented figures!!!):
Proz has 3,212 translators in this pair who informed their rates.
Their overall average rate is USD 0.10/word.
From these translators:
860 are non-paying users, and their average rate is USD 0.07/word
2,352 are Proz members, and their average rate is USD 0.11/word
From these members, 402 are PRO-tag translators, and their average rate is USD 0.12/word.
This should give outsourcers an idea on what they are likely to get for the rates they offer. Many know it only for a few language pairs, and others don't have a clue.
So, my personal position is to let outsourcers post their rates, however force them into making an educated guess. Bottom feeders will disregard this information and go on offering 2¢, or close to that. At least upon doing so with the information everybody knows they received, they will be showing their true colors, and not their ignorance.
I'd suggest the same information appeared to translators, either on job ads (easier), or as a popup when they are about to post their rates on a quote.
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Lingua 5B
Bosnia and Herzegovina
Local time: 11:30
Member (2009)
English to Croatian
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a2ztranslate wrote:
4. I have a budget to work to. That is set by my client. There are times when I have to refuse a project because I know I won't be able to find translators to meet the budget. But in those marginal cases isn't it better that translators have the option to take on some work to fill in a gap in their schedule, even if it is less than their target rate?
So, you are booking my time, expertise and energy at a low price?
When a good client comes in the "gap", I will be unavailable or exhausted/drained from your low-paying job. I may take on your bad-paying project in the morning, having to work on it for a few days, and then get a 700 times better offer in the afternoon? What then?
I see you didn't take any perspective of the translator when you composed this "gem" of an idea. It's also reflected in the fact you obviously don't understand that we are looking for better payers just as much as you are looking for cheaper translators- conflict of interest is a tricky thing.
When I have a "gap", I use that time for my hobbies and the things I enjoy doing ( working cheaply is certainly not something I enjoy doing). Even my translation "gigs" back from my student days paid far better than 50 % of jobs here.
By your account, it seems like your business depends on intimidated experienced translators without self-respect. They will provide excellent service cheaply, right?
| | | | | Good discussion so far-- let's keep it courteous | Apr 6, 2010 |
Thanks everyone for the discussion so far, there's some interesting stuff here. I'm sticking my post in at this point just as a kind reminder to all involved to keep the conversation professional. Thanks.
Regards,
Jared
| | | | Lingua 5B
Bosnia and Herzegovina
Local time: 11:30
Member (2009)
English to Croatian
+ ...
John Fossey wrote:
As in any field of endeavour, there are good agencies and then there are others. The good agencies have usually carved out a niche in the market that they can work in profitably at reasonable prices , have adequate finances and well managed business practices, and as a result are a pleasure to deal with.
I share this view, absolutely (especially the bold part).
| | | | | Quality agencies have the privilege of working with quality translators | Apr 6, 2010 |
Aguas de Marco wrote:
I only work with ethical agencies who choose me because I am fit for the work they have at hand, who respect my rate and payment terms, and who do not think they are making me a "favor" through their marketing and management. The relationship is one of mutual collaboration and respect, and nothing else. I will never bash any of these agencies, on the contrary, I praise them all the time.
Amen to that.
Translators should only accept the jobs that they're actually qualified to handle and communicate clearly about their skills and rates... and agencies should accept that quality translation has a price tag appropriate to the years that the translator has invested in reaching that level of quality. On the other hand, as has been noted earlier in this discussion, not every text requires that 25-cent specialised translator with first-hand experience in brain surgery.
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Krzysztof Kajetanowicz (X)
Poland
Local time: 11:30
English to Polish
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| offered rates vs. rock bottom rates | Apr 6, 2010 |
apk12 wrote: philgoddard wrote:...
I'd be interested to hear from some of the companies offering really rock-bottom rates. But maybe that's too much to hope for. if 0.02 is not rock-bottom for EN>FR, then now I am really interested in finding out how one could interpret rock-bottom then.
Hey, that's the rate of some translators in the agency's database. Nobody put a gun to the translator's head. We set our own rates, remember?
| | | | Lingua 5B
Bosnia and Herzegovina
Local time: 11:30
Member (2009)
English to Croatian
+ ...
| Yes and no/ Partially true | Apr 6, 2010 |
Krzysztof Kajetanowicz wrote:
Nobody put a gun to the translator's head. We set our own rates, remember?
This is "ultimately" true.
But, on the other hand, there's a lot of coercion and intimidation on the market that makes translators drop their prices ( e.g. "if you don't work for me cheaply, you won't find any work at all"), but of course this will only impact translators without any market or business awareness. It is also highly questionable how skilled and quality translators they are if this kind of trickery manages to intimidate them.
[Edited at 2010-04-06 11:45 GMT]
| | | | apk12
Germany
Local time: 11:30
English to German
+ ...
Krzysztof Kajetanowicz wrote: apk12 wrote: philgoddard wrote:...
I'd be interested to hear from some of the companies offering really rock-bottom rates. But maybe that's too much to hope for. if 0.02 is not rock-bottom for EN>FR, then now I am really interested in finding out how one could interpret rock-bottom then. Hey, that's the rate of some translators in the agency's database. Nobody put a gun to the translator's head. We set our own rates, remember?
I understand your attempt to try to understand this outsourcer as much as possible, but the full quote is:
apk12 wrote: short addendum to post above: but what's maybe even more striking than that is the following: a2ztranslate wrote:
...As an example, in our database of translators, for EN-FR we have translators who set their minimum rate in a range from 0.02 through to 0.24 per word.
...
erm with full respect. but I think, the information that a service provider is honestly talking about people in their database setting their rates around 0.02 in language pairs like the given one as of "translators" or even as of "professional translators"... then this for sure is a valuable information for every end client of any possible agency wishing to know some details about the expectable quality of their deliveries...
and
apk12 wrote: philgoddard wrote:...
I'd be interested to hear from some of the companies offering really rock-bottom rates. But maybe that's too much to hope for. if 0.02 is not rock-bottom for EN>FR, then now I am really interested in finding out how one could interpret rock-bottom then. (in fact, quite some numbers above 0.02 belong to this range http://www.proz.com/forum/prozcom_suggestions/161854-how_to_improve_proz_blue_board_and_rates_problem_at_the_same_time.html#1362182 ) ...if 0.02 is not rock-bottom, I have no idea what rock-bottom could be. I fail to believe that a "translator" offering his / her working time to the outsourcer starting this thread for 0.02 in this language pair would not receive offers because he/she would not stay in the databank otherwise and would not have been mentioned by the outsourcer. logically: 0.02-"translators" are getting projects, and they obviously get them from the same company speaking here for the mentioned rate. (...)
I also suggest to take a look at j.h.'s comment to this:
José Henrique Lamensdorf wrote: a2ztranslate wrote:
As a service industry, most corporations look at services first to cut costs. That is just plain business reality. So we cop it first and hardest. ... However 2¢/w translation is like going as low as replacing safety helmets with straw hats in their manufacturing plants.
and to remind the fact that after having gone that far, the outsourcer could as well have set the range between 0.00 and the rates of translators. mentioning quietly that google could do this also and he/she would have even less expenses then. so that suddenly 0.02 sounds as "at least something". what now: is this still a rate/price set by translators? incl 0.02? incl. 0.00?
coming together with the professionality shown in the part quoted here:
http://www.proz.com/forum/prozcom_job_systems/161914-new_system_from_a_translation_buyers_perspective-page2.html#1363390
I have to say (dear site staff) that actually the post of the translator mentioning a high better paying even in his/her student days does sound far more professional than expecting experienced professionals to gain experience only in order to raise the agency's profit margin by selling his/her professional speed for monkey currency.
but ok (dear site staff) - if we are forbidden to share a few honest thoughts and a bit of free laughing about some striking attempts here, we will move on... to a next one...
http://www.proz.com/forum/business_issues/97826-do_translators_need_sleep-page2.html#1364509
[Edited at 2010-04-07 06:03 GMT]
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