| Pages in topic: < [1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11] > | Macedonian vs Macedonian conceptual conflict Thread poster: Said Kaljanac a.k.a. SARAJ
|
|---|
| Thanks for the information and your prompt reply | Sep 6, 2007 |
Dimitra Karamperi wrote:
I live in Thessaloniki, the bigger city of the prefecture of Macedonia. Of course there is no such thing as a Macedonian dialect. We speak Greek, we are part of Greece, we are Greeks. There are no doubts concerning this.
But the problem is not that. The problem lies to the fact that there is a conflict when you write/say that you are from Macedonia but another new country states that its language is "Macedonian". To make myself clear purely in linguistic level, I have been offered via my profile jobs into "Macedonian".
Yes, apart from the national & political reasons, I do believe that there is a conflict here.
Kind regards,
Dimitra
From what you say, I still feel that the problem is political and emotional and not linguistic.
I checked your profile, and I see no reason why anyone should offer you jobs into "Macedonian", because you do not mention the word at all. The fact that some potential clients get languages confused does not shed any light on the current discussion (I, too, sometimes get requests for work in languages that I have absolutely no knowledge of).
And if you tell clients that you are from "Macedonia", you will always have to explain to some clients which Macedonia you mean - the name that is used for the language here is immaterial.
BTW, Thessaloniki is a beautiful city (I was there briefly on holiday over 30 years ago).
| | | | | Etymology not the topic | Sep 6, 2007 |
I've started hiding posts about etymologies. As I already said it. It is interesting, but everyone will have his/her own version, his/her own sources and the problem will not be solved. Talking etymology is a dead-end discussion. All you can conclude is that Indo-European languages have all same roots, including respectively Greek (GR) and Macedonian (MK).
[Edited at 2007-09-06 19:44]
| | | | Nick Lingris 
United Kingdom
Local time: 12:05
Member (2006)
English to Greek
+ ...
| Not a linguistic matter but part of a geopolitical problem | Sep 6, 2007 |
Macedonian as the name of the language spoken in the Republic of Macedonia / FYROM is not a linguistic matter but part of a geopolitical problem. Macedonia on its own should be nothing but the name of a region that comprises northern and northeastern Greece, the southwestern corner of Bulgaria, and the Republic of Macedonia. Once an independent state makes this name the name of the state without any modifiers, its neighbours become suspicious of irredentist aspirations. Foreigners may look at th... See more Macedonian as the name of the language spoken in the Republic of Macedonia / FYROM is not a linguistic matter but part of a geopolitical problem. Macedonia on its own should be nothing but the name of a region that comprises northern and northeastern Greece, the southwestern corner of Bulgaria, and the Republic of Macedonia. Once an independent state makes this name the name of the state without any modifiers, its neighbours become suspicious of irredentist aspirations. Foreigners may look at the map, compare the size of the smaller state with the size of its neighbours and wave away any such suspicions as irrelevant. However, to people in the region and people who have studied the issue, the name ‘Republic of Macedonia’ remains an anomaly. It is illogical to have the name of the whole as the name of a part of the whole. In geopolitics these are not considered purely emotional matters, nor are they easily dismissed by the parties directly involved. So the issue of the name itself remains unsolved and the Greek prime minister has just reiterated that Greece will veto FYROM’s entry to NATO and the European Union for as long as Greece and FYROM have not come to a final agreement about the name.
The present impasse is the work of nationalists and extremists on both sides. There was a time when Greeks did not want any use of the name ‘Macedonia’ to be made by their neighbours. Now that Greeks have realised their mistakes of the past and are ready to accept ‘Macedonia’ as long as it is accompanied by a modifier, their neighbours want exclusive use of the name Macedonia without a modifier. (This is the reason why the translators here will not accept a modifier next to Macedonian.)
The Ancient Macedonian language was the tongue of the Ancient Macedonians. It was spoken in Macedon during the 1st millennium BC. [Wikipedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ancient_Macedonian_language] Modern ‘Macedonian’ is not, however, the language spoken in Macedonia – because Macedonia is a much larger region than the 25,000 square kilometres of the Republic of Macedonia / FYROM. Until the latter state has come to a final agreement with Greece on a name that will not constitute an anomaly, we might consider the name of the language to be an anomaly as well.
Any compromise that will be reached in ProZ.com, whether acceptable by both sides directly involved here or an anomaly, will be a temporary solution until such time as the two states have reached a final agreement acceptable to both peoples. ▲ Collapse
| | |
|
|
|
Maria Karra
United States
Local time: 07:05
Member (2000)
Greek to English
+ ...
| Said's 2nd suggestion | Sep 6, 2007 |
Said Kaljanac a.k.a. SARAJ wrote:
I have read arguments from ones and others. What I see is that the Greek community refuses that non Greek community monopolizes the term Macedonian, while the Macedonians from FYROM do not have another name to identify themselves and find it unfair not to be treated as equally as other language communities.
) In order to be treated equally, fairly, linguistically and to please all (I hope), I suggest to reorganize the "Non English Forums" by linguistical branches and not simply by alphabetical order of languages.
So when you click on "Non English forums" instead of having a classification sorted per language, have it sorted per linguistical branches.
We could have something like this:
"Non-English forums":
->"Semitic languages"
->->Arabic
->->Aramaic
->->Hebrew
...
->"Romance languages":
->->French
->->Italian
->->Portuguese
->->Romanian
->->Spanish
...
->"Slavic languages":
->->Bosnian
->->Bulgarian
->->Croatian
->->Czech
->->Macedonian
->->Polish
->->Russian
[/quote]
Maybe this would be a good solution. I haven't had time to think about it thoroughly so I am not ready to vote in favor or against it, but at least I think it is worth considering and thank you for posting it. Let's think about the pros and cons and if anybody has any objection, please share.
Maria
| | | |
I personally agree with the newest solution posted by Said.
This is a textbook example of supreme diplomacy.
Thank you Said and "chapeau bas"!
Sherefedin
| | | | | Explanation why I proposed the second solution - my concerns | Sep 6, 2007 |
First, I took into account both revendications.
a) Greeks propose to add SLAVIC.
b) Macedonians from FYROM consider it unfair, because other languages don't have the branch next to the language name.
Second, I proposed to include both ingredients: having the term SLAVIC and being fair.
c) I included both arguments:
-mentioning SLAVIC
-putting all the languages on the same level and per branches in order to be fair
Third, and ... See more First, I took into account both revendications.
a) Greeks propose to add SLAVIC.
b) Macedonians from FYROM consider it unfair, because other languages don't have the branch next to the language name.
Second, I proposed to include both ingredients: having the term SLAVIC and being fair.
c) I included both arguments:
-mentioning SLAVIC
-putting all the languages on the same level and per branches in order to be fair
Third, and the most important concern is to maintain Proz.com a purely linguistical site without involving any geopolitical arguments.
Wouldn't be this a good compromise for Greek language community, for Macedonian language community from FYROM and for Proz.com itself as a language reference site?
Very best regards
p.s. I hope this to be an aspirine, and if not please give me a gun to get over it with my headache
[Edited at 2007-09-06 21:14]
[Edited at 2007-09-06 21:15] ▲ Collapse
| | | |
Sherefedin MUSTAFA wrote:
I personally agree with the newest solution posted by Said.
This is a textbook example of supreme diplomacy.
Thank you Said and "chapeau bas"!
Sherefedin
Thank you for your agreement and kind words. But I think that we all deserve kind words, because despite our heated talk, we still manage to discuss the subject in a polite and civilized manner. And I am glad for that and looking forward to finding the forum finally open if all agree and don't feel offended.
Kind regards
[Edited at 2007-09-06 21:23]
| | |
|
|
|
| I agree as well | Sep 6, 2007 |
I must admit that the second option is a decent solution, giving both communities the feeling that are being heard in equal terms.
Kind regards,
Dimitra
P.S. No need for guns either
Said Kaljanac a.k.a. SARAJ wrote: Wouldn't be this a good compromise for Greek language community, for Macedonian language community from FYROM and for Proz.com itself as a language reference site? Very best regards p.s. I hope this to be an aspirine, and if not please give me a gun to get over it with my headache [Edited at 2007-09-06 21:14] [Edited at 2007-09-06 21:15]
| | | |
Dimitra Karamperi wrote: I must admit that the second option is a decent solution, giving both communities the feeling that are being heard in equal terms. Kind regards, Dimitra P.S. No need for guns either Said Kaljanac a.k.a. SARAJ wrote: Wouldn't be this a good compromise for Greek language community, for Macedonian language community from FYROM and for Proz.com itself as a language reference site? Very best regards p.s. I hope this to be an aspirine, and if not please give me a gun to get over it with my headache [Edited at 2007-09-06 21:14] [Edited at 2007-09-06 21:15]
Thank you so much, my headache is getting better and better.
Kind regards
| | | | | How could it look like? | Sep 7, 2007 |
I think that in the long term such classification would allow many other language communities to open under a common family and subfamily language names.
Curious how it could look like? Well let's have a look at this:
FAMILY
-----SUBFAMILY----- or -----REGION/AREA/ISOLATES/OTHER-----
Language
ALTAIC
-----TURKIC-----
Turkish (Özden Arıkan)
Post any topic, in Turkish
-----JAPANES... See more I think that in the long term such classification would allow many other language communities to open under a common family and subfamily language names.
Curious how it could look like? Well let's have a look at this:
FAMILY
-----SUBFAMILY----- or -----REGION/AREA/ISOLATES/OTHER-----
Language
ALTAIC
-----TURKIC-----
Turkish (Özden Arıkan)
Post any topic, in Turkish
-----JAPANESE-----
Japanese
Post any topic, in Japanese
CAUCASIAN
-----SOUTH-----
Georgian (DGK T-I)
Post any topic, in Georgian
CHINESE
-----“NATIONAL LANGUAGE”-----
Chinese* (Kevin Yang)
Post any topic, in Chinese
DRAVIDIAN
-----SOUTH-----
Tamil
Post any topic, in Tamil
(recommended encoding is: Unicode)
FINNO-UGRIC
-----BALTIC-----
Estonian (Andreas Müürsepp)
Post any topic, in Estonian
Finnish (Annira Silver)
Post any topic, in Finnish
-----EAST-----
Hungarian (Csaba Ban)
Post any topic, in Hungarian
HAMITO-SEMITIC
-----SEMITIC-----
Arabic (Henry D)
Post any topic, in Arabic
Hebrew (Doron Greenspan MITI)
Post any topic, in Hebrew
(recommended encoding is: Unicode)
INDO-EUROPEAN
-----BALTIC-----
Latvian (Uldis Liepkalns)
Post any topic, in Latvian
Lithuanian (diana bb)
Post any topic, in Lithuanian
-----GERMANIC-----
Danish (Susanne Rosenberg)
Post any topic, in Danish
Dutch (Evert DELOOF-SYS, Jacqueline van der Spek)
Post any topic, in Dutch
German (Ralf Lemster)
Post any topic, in German
Norwegian (Eivind Lilleskjaeret)
Post any topic, in Norwegian
Swedish (Mats Wiman)
Post any topic, in Swedish
-----INDIAN-----
Bengali (Saleh Chowdhury)
Post any topic, in Bengali
Hindi
Post any topic, in Hindi
(recommended encoding is: Unicode)
-----IRANIAN-----
Persian/Farsi
Post any topic, in Persian/Farsi
(recommended encoding is: Unicode)
Urdu
Post any topic, in Urdu
(recommended encoding is: Unicode)
-----ISOLATES-----
Albanian (Monika Coulson, Fabiana Papastefani-Pezzoni)
Post any topic, in Albanian
Armenian (Henrik Pipoyan)
Post any topic, in Armenian
Greek
Post any topic, in Greek
-----ROMANCE-----
Catalan (Maria Rosich Andreu)
Post any topic, in Catalan
French (JCEC)
Post any topic, in French
Italian (gianfranco)
Post any topic, in Italian
Portuguese
Post any topic, in Portuguese
Romanian (Cristiana Coblis)
Post any topic, in Romanian
Spanish (Maria Karra, María José Iglesias)
Post any topic, in Spanish
-----SLAVIC-----
Bosnian (Said Kaljanac a.k.a. SARAJ)
Post any topic, in Bosnian
Bulgarian (AmusedNath)
Post any topic, in Bulgarian
Croatian (Said Kaljanac a.k.a. SARAJ)
Post any topic, in Croatian
Czech
Post any topic, in Czech, related to the art of business of translation.
Macedonian (Moderatorov Moderatorovitch )
Post any topic, in Macedonian
Polish (Magda Dziadosz)
Post any topic, in Polish
Russian (Natalie, Jarema)
Post any topic, in Russian
Serbian (Sandra Milosavljevic-Rothe)
Discussion of translation-related topics, in Serbian.
Slovak (Lucia Filova)
Post any topic, in Slovak
Ukrainian (Oleg Prots)
Post any topic, in Ukrainian
MALAYO-POLYNESIAN
-----INDONESIAN-----
Indonesian (Harry Hermawan)
Post any topic, in Indonesian
(recommended encoding is: Unicode)
Malay (yam2u)
Post any topic, in Malay
(recommended encoding is: Unicode)
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
*Based on their national language, I would suggest to use the branch CHINESE and language denomination MANDARIN. That way if another community wants to open a CANTONESE forum, it offers them that possibility too and it remains under the CHINESE branch.
p.s. Please if I've unintentionally made a mistake, correct me.
Best regards
[Edited at 2007-09-07 01:20] ▲ Collapse
| | | | Maria Karra
United States
Local time: 07:05
Member (2000)
Greek to English
+ ...
| one more vote | Sep 7, 2007 |
in favor of Said's 2nd suggestion
Maria
| | |
|
|
|
Nick Lingris
United Kingdom
Local time: 12:05
Member (2006)
English to Greek
+ ...
| It obviously has my vote, for what it's worth | Sep 7, 2007 |
I must commend Said on an excellent job on top of his excellent compromise solution, which I consider infinitely better than my own and an excellent educational tool as well. Samuel is bound to point out that Afrikaans is missing from the Germanic languages, but that is the only omission I have been able to spot. Other details can be worked out by each language's moderators.
| | | | Maria Karra
United States
Local time: 07:05
Member (2000)
Greek to English
+ ...
| educational tool | Sep 7, 2007 |
Nick wrote: It obviously has my vote, for what it's worth
It is worth a lot, Niko.
Nick has a good point: this structure suggested by Said will serve as an educational tool because the forums will no longer have a simple list of languages; instead they will clearly show which linguistic branch each language belongs to. So in addition to finding a great compromise solution to the problem discussed here, we'll end up having a better forum structure!
This may take a little bit more time to implement than merely creating a new forum but I believe it's worth it.
Maria
| | | | | Thank you so much, really | Sep 7, 2007 |
Thank you Maria and Nick.
I am ready to give a hand classifying languages into branches, families and subfamilies.
That way any language could be easily added without any ambiguous connotation and without being monopolized by one or another community, since it will be only a denomination under a subfamily, and this latter under a family. With such a system we could add even dialects;
Kind reg... See more Thank you Maria and Nick.
I am ready to give a hand classifying languages into branches, families and subfamilies.
That way any language could be easily added without any ambiguous connotation and without being monopolized by one or another community, since it will be only a denomination under a subfamily, and this latter under a family. With such a system we could add even dialects;
Kind regards
p.s. Surely if Afrikaans community expresses the need for a forum, it'll be added under the Indo-European family and Germanic subfamily.
[Edited at 2007-09-07 01:51] ▲ Collapse
| | | | | Pages in topic: < [1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11] > | To report site rules violations or get help, contact a site moderator: You can also contact site staff by submitting a support request » Macedonian vs Macedonian conceptual conflict | Trados Studio 2022 Freelance | The leading translation software used by over 270,000 translators.
Designed with your feedback in mind, Trados Studio 2022 delivers an unrivalled, powerful desktop
and cloud solution, empowering you to work in the most efficient and cost-effective way.
More info » |
| | Wordfast Pro | Translation Memory Software for Any Platform
Exclusive discount for ProZ.com users!
Save over 13% when purchasing Wordfast Pro through ProZ.com. Wordfast is the world's #1 provider of platform-independent Translation Memory software. Consistently ranked the most user-friendly and highest value
Buy now! » |
|
| | | | X Sign in to your ProZ.com account... | | | | | |
Login to reply/comment 
