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Glossary entry

anglais term or phrase:

deliver lambs in a force 9 gale

français translation:

capable de faire accoucher une brebis par (vent de) force 9

Added to glossary by Inès Bois
Sep 10, 2019 21:21
4 yrs ago
anglais term

deliver lambs in a force 9 gale

anglais vers français Art / Littérature Cinéma, film, TV, théâtre Série TV
Bonjour à tous,

Je bloque sur une phrase "he looks as if he could deliver lambs in a force 9 gale."
Il s'agit de la description d'un personnage d'une série TV irlandaise. Je ne sais pas trop comment la tourner, ou si c'est une expression dont je ne trouve pas le sens sur internet.

La phrase complète est "Sam is serious and sincere, but he’s no pushover. Even before he speaks, it’s clear that he’s from the country — he looks as if he could deliver lambs in a force 9 gale."

Si quelqu'un a une idée, merci.
Proposed translations (français)
4 +4 capable de faire accoucher une brebis par (vent de) force 9
4 +1 il serait parfaitement capable de faire accoucher une brebis même dans la pire des tempêtes
5 -1 Livrer des agneaux dans un vent terrible / Vent atroce / Vent très fort / Tempête
3 assurer la mise bas d'agneaux sous une tempête
3 -3 fort comme un boeuf
Change log

Sep 11, 2019 08:17: Daryo changed "Level" from "Non-PRO" to "PRO"

Votes to reclassify question as PRO/non-PRO:

PRO (3): Beatriz Ramírez de Haro, FX Fraipont (X), Daryo

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Discussion

florence metzger Sep 14, 2019:
force 8 gale : coup de vent
force 9 strong gale : fort coup de vent
force 10 storm : tempête
B D Finch Sep 12, 2019:
@Eliza Describing someone giving their weight in pounds is very American. Besides the fact that in Britain we use stones and pounds (I wouldn't have a clue what a person's weight in pounds meant without converting it, plus I changed over to kilos years ago), it's unusual for somebody's weight to be estimated in a description the way it is in the US. We'd just say they were fat, thin, well-built etc., even in a police report. So, putting numerical values in is not a general thing, but context-specific.
Eliza Hall Sep 12, 2019:
@ Cyril That's an interesting point about the EN tendency to state specific numbers more than FR does. For that reason I agree with Daryo changing "force 9 gale" to "la pire des tempêtes." I think "qu'il vent ou qu'il pleuve" isn't strong enough, though -- it doesn't evoke a force 9 gale.

If you were translating a novel or short story -- in other words a literary text -- the EN tendency to state numbers would raise an interesting dilemma. If the book says, in 3rd person narration, that a man weighs 180 pounds, then that is a 3rd person omniscient narrator (i.e. a god's-eye view). If you switch it to "assez corpulent," though, you're changing the type of narration, since that description is a characteristic that's visible to other people, not just a fact that only an omniscient narrator could know. Beware of changing the type of narration.

And on another note, "180 pounds" is not at all corpulent if the man is tall (say, 6 feet/185cm or more). Here's a fitness article showing men's bodies at different weights, to give you an idea: https://www.insider.com/how-different-men-look-at-same-weigh...
Cyril Tollari Sep 12, 2019:
I removed my answer after reading Tony's comment. I think Tony's right. We can use 'agneler' or something around those lines in this context provided the sentence is well worded in French. Si le sens recherché = Sam brave les éléments, alors on pourrait utiliser 'qu'il vente ou qu'il pleuve'.

"Sam est tout ce qu'il y a de plus brave, mais (…). Avant même qu'il ait dit un mot, tu sait qu'il est du pays ; il fait agneler qu'il vente ou qu'il pleuve."

Is the 'force 9 gale' an example of the following? (Vinay's comparative stylistics):
"4.8.3.4 Measurements English seems to use specific measurements more often than French. We see this in the classification of pieces of ordinance, e.g. ‘a 3-pounder shell’, and of shotguns ‘a quarter inch bore’; it also applies to persons, where in an English novel we might read a precise measurement when French would normally only give a general indication.

He had blue eyes, close-cropped hair and weighed 180 pounds
= Assez corpulent, il avait les yeux bleus et les cheveux en brosse.
Germaine Sep 11, 2019:
Inès, "...he’s no pushover... it’s clear that he’s from the country — he looks as if he could deliver lambs in a force 9 gale."

Pour moi, la fin vient expliquer en quoi le personnage "is not a pushover":
it’s clear that he’s from the country = il est bâti (grand et musclé, athlétique)
he looks as if he could deliver lambs in a force 9 gale = il est fort et solide sur ses pieds.

Je pense aussi que l'agnelage n'est pas absolument nécessaire ici, du moment qu'on a l'image d'un homme fort, ou une image "pastorale" - et surtout si ce narratif est en voix on (post-synchro image) plutôt qu'en voix off.

Pour ma part, je dirais: "Sam est sérieux et sincère, mais ce n'est pas une chiffe molle. Avant même qu'il ouvre la bouche, vous voyez qu'il vient de la campagne — Il est du genre [à accoucher une brebis dans la bourrasque.] [à refermer le cellier sous une tornade.] [à soulever deux ballots de foin au bout d'une fourche.]

Variante: Il a tout [du Jos Montferrand] [d'un John Sullivan].
Ph_B (X) Sep 11, 2019:
Sandra, Je suis d'accord avec votre proposition (pré, etc.). Dans le même ordre d'idée : « C'est clair qu'il est de la campagne, c'est le genre à sortir à pas d'heure/par tous les temps pour (s'occuper de) ses bêtes » (langage parlé).
Sandra Mouton Sep 11, 2019:
@Ph_B Oui, c'est un point qui me chiffonne aussi, un petit peu (je pense que l'image est tout de même parlante en français mais pas aussi évidente peut-être qu'en anglais britannique ou irlandais). Cela dit, à mon sens, c'est Inès, qui a posé la question, qui est le mieux à même d'y répondre.
S'il est important de garder tout son caractère irlandais à la phrase, je reste sur ma proposition "capable de faire accoucher une brebis par vent de force 9" (ou "d'aider une brebis à mettre bas par vent de force 9").
Si au contraire on peut adapter, peut-être qu'une métaphore bovine serait meilleure et on peut alors choisir d'abandonner la référence marine de "force 9". Par exemple (si ce n'est pas trop long) "il est du genre à être dans le pré même à trois heures du matin quand un vache met bas".
@Asker : qu'est-ce que vous dites de tout ça ?
Ph_B (X) Sep 11, 2019:
différences culturelles ? J'ai un doute sur l'utilisation de cette image auprès d'un public français. Les moutons sont peut-être très présents dans la culture irlandaise, mais est-ce qu'ils évoquent la même chose chez les Français ?
Sandra Mouton Sep 11, 2019:
@BD Finch "the problem is finding a French expression that conveys similar ideas."
Like "faire accoucher une brebis", you mean?
Sandra Mouton Sep 11, 2019:
@Tony "Several people have suggested a different image needs to be used"
"Could" rather than "needs".
"the use of Force 9 is by no means limited to the shipping forecast, this is why it works very well in EN but as you and others have said does NOT work in FR in the same way"
It does work in French, which is why I chose to keep it in my translation: it suggests countryside not far from the sea. It gives local colour and adds another layer of sense of place (Ireland in English, Brittany, Normandy or Charentes maritimes in French). Why lose that in the translation?
There is also the fact that "tempête", contrary to English "gale" is landlubber language. People who live near the sea don't talk about "tempête" for strong wind on land (on its own, "tempêtes de novembre", for example, is a different matter).
For what it's worth, I still think that if it were a farmer from the Midlands we were talking about, they would not say "force 9 gale" in English.
B D Finch Sep 11, 2019:
@Sandra Many of us insomniac romantics listen to the shipping forecast! However, the point really is that this is an expression that's readily understood as a metaphor in the UK. Indeed, that's why it's used as the name of a brand of outdoor clothing.

Re your point 'It's just that in French we don't refer to it as lambing but as "ewe delivering",' that's not a problem; the problem is finding a French expression that conveys similar ideas.
Tony M Sep 11, 2019:
@ Sandra Several people have suggested a different image needs to be used
And yes, the use of Force 9 is by no means limited to the shipping forecast, this is why it works very well in EN but as you and others have said does NOT work in FR in the same way; whence my suggestion of 'tempête'.
Sandra Mouton Sep 11, 2019:
@Tony Just to clarify, I'm not "concerned" about the image of lambing (and I don't think that my French colleagues are either). It's just that in French we don't refer to it as lambing but as "ewe delivering".
Sandra Mouton Sep 11, 2019:
@BD Finch I do, because I sail, but that's my point right there: it is the shipping forecast, so rather niche, not the land weather forecast which the general public listens to. So unless you are into sailing/shipping/fishing at sea, you don't hear "force 9 gale" in English more often that you hear "coup de vent force 8 fraîchissant à 9 en fin de nuit" in French!
B D Finch Sep 11, 2019:
@Sandra It appears you don't listen to the shipping forecast!
Sandra Mouton Sep 11, 2019:
@Tony Hi Tony,
Moving our discussion in your peer comment here as I was running out of space to answer.

Regarding how common "Force 9 gale" is in English, I disagree with you. If you look at the Met Office weather forecast, there is no mention of the Beaufort scale, even when a weather warning for wind is in place (in French météo marine parlance, a "BMS"). Heck, they don't even express wind speed in knots and go for mph! We get our fair share of gales here in Bristol, which I'm sure you'd agree has a strong maritime heritage, and never have I seen the local newspapers mention "force 9" or anything like that. So I do feel that the presence of that wording in English is significant and needs to be kept in French, to lend the same local Irish colour, from a land where fields are never far from the sea.

As for the importance of keeping the element of urgency that lambing denotes, I agree (if the Asker feels it's relevant to the context). I think my translation referencing a ewe giving birth does exactly that. Believe it or not, the fact that a ewe's or a cow's time for delivery comes as and when it wants and broods no discussion is clear to French ears as well ;).
Tony M Sep 11, 2019:
@ Asker I understand that some of our FR colleagues are concerned about the image of 'lambing' here, although it does fit well with the image of hardy country folk in Ireland (or indeed Scorland or Wales) — it's a bit like the image of raising goats on the Larzac.
However, if the mention of sheep is acceptable (= local colour to lend realism to the image), it's important to retain the notion of 'lambing' — which is something urgent, which occurs willy-nilly, at any time, whether or not "convenient"; hence why one might be obliged to do it even in the teeth of a Force 9!
However, if the activity is changed to something that would only be done optionally, it completely changes the sense "He'd be capable of (= stupid enough to) clip a dog's claws in the rain"

So whatever simile is chosen, it does need to be something that includes the imperative nature of doing something that would not normally be done in inclement weather.
B D Finch Sep 11, 2019:
Hope this helps Just to clarify the meaning. Lambing is vitally important economically for sheep farmers, but unless the farmer assists, in the event of complications the ewe and lambs might die. The sheep can be outside in remote places and lambing can happen in the middle of the night and in very bad weather or in the middle of a snowdrift. It's a messy, demanding and difficult job and most people would prefer to go to sleep or, at least, stay indoors.

So, the idea is that Sam is absolutely reliable and prepared to do hard, messy work in physically demanding conditions while also taking care of vulnerable creatures that need gentle handling. As suggested by Tony above, it also involves coping with emergency situations.
Cyril Tollari Sep 11, 2019:
Il ne faut pas. Les deux sont possibles.
david henrion Sep 10, 2019:
oops il est tard, désolé pour le malencontreux et certes navrant "livrer des agneaux" !!!
Cyril Tollari Sep 10, 2019:
Il sait s'y prendre avec les choses de la campagne. Il peut faire la mise bas même dans une tempête. Je ne suis pas de l'Irlande donc connaît pas cette expression et je pourrais me tromper sur le sens. Plus habitué aux expressions ovines downunder. J'oublierais le vent. Peut-être, "il te tondrait un mouton en moins de deux".
Inès Bois (asker) Sep 10, 2019:
Français standard... Mais je ne saisis vraiment pas le sens de la phrase...
Cyril Tollari Sep 10, 2019:
Livrer des agneaux ? ou bien une mise bas par vent fort ? Il faut peut-être trouver une expression équivalente qu'on utilise pour quelqu'un de la campagne. En français de France ou canadien ?
Inès Bois (asker) Sep 10, 2019:
Non... C'est un détective, issu de l'Irlande profonde, pas plus de précisions...
david henrion Sep 10, 2019:
Le personnage a-t-il à voir avec le monde de l'élevage des ovins ? auquel cas le littéral : "capable de livrer des agneaux contre un vent de force 9" ferait sens.

Proposed translations

+4
11 heures
Selected

capable de faire accoucher une brebis par (vent de) force 9

Je pense qu'en français il est plus naturel de tourner la phrase en se focalisant sur la brebis qui met bas plutôt que sur l'agneau qui naît.

Voici ma proposition si vous tenez à rester fidèle à l'image du texte-source. Cela dit, je suis d'accord avec Cyril, n'importe quelle comparaison qui indique que le dénommé Sam "est un warrior" et solide gars de la campagne fait l'affaire. Et bien sûr, il faut surtout que ça sonne naturel, IMO.

Autre chose : même si l'échelle Beaufort n'est pas si connue du grand public francophone (en France en tout cas), elle ne l'est pas non plus du grand public britannique ou irlandais, à mon sens, et je garderais donc sa mention, qui me semble délibérée dans le texte anglais. Une sorte d'alliance de la campagne et de la mer, surf-and-turf-style...
Peer comment(s):
agree GILLES MEUNIER : oui, ce n'est pas un document destiné aux vétérinaires...
19 minutes
Merci Gilou. Sauf si c'est une série TV spécialement destinée aux vétérinaires ;-)
agree Tony M : No, 'Force 9 gale' is much more commonly understood in EN (mentioned in weather bulletins) than FR; however, changing the activity is risky: lambing is something you can't choose, whereas almost any other activity, you would be stupid to try in a gale!
28 minutes
Thanks. My point was that "Force 9 gale" is as common or uncommon in English as "vent de force 9" is in French (same context of bulletins météo). I don't think its use is insignificant in the English so it needs keeping in the French./See discussion entry
agree writeaway
1 heure
Merci !
neutral Ph_B (X) : J'ai quand même un doute sur l'efficacité de l'image sur des Français.
1 heure
agree Eliza Hall
1 jour 7 heures
Something went wrong...
4 KudoZ points awarded for this answer. Comment: "Merci !"
-1
2 heures

Livrer des agneaux dans un vent terrible / Vent atroce / Vent très fort / Tempête

Il apparaît que le "Force 9 Gale" est une unité de mesure de l'échelle de Beaufort, afin de mesurer la puissance du vent.
Le sens de la phrase serait alors que le personnage puisse livrer des agneaux ou du bétail sous des temps impossibles voir en pleine tempête.
Reference:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beaufort_scale

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Em2LqxdL2Rs

Peer comment(s):
disagree Tony M : 'deliver' here has the senses of '(helping) give birth', not literally deliver like a parcel. Same role as a midwife for humans!
7 heures
Ok I see. Anyway, the most rational and logical terminology for force 9 gale is, in my eyes, "Really strong wind", "Tempest / Mini-tempest", "Awful wind", "Terrible conditions due to wind".
Something went wrong...
9 heures

assurer la mise bas d'agneaux sous une tempête

Here it's about the idea of 'agneler' — it suggests he is a strudy fellow, capable of looking after lambing (lots of sheep in Ireland) even during a gale (or storm) — strong winds blowing in off the Atlantic.

Not literal, of course, just a good iage for suggesting what a strong, powerful, fearless, etc. man he was.
Peer comment(s):
agree FX Fraipont (X)
6 minutes
Merci, F-X !
neutral Ph_B (X) : C'est le sens, évidemment, mais dans une série télé ? Est-ce que ça parlerait à des Français ?
34 minutes
Merci, Ph_B ! Yes, indeed, I was more concerned in the first instance about giving the correct meaning!
neutral writeaway : Naturally you've understood the English but am not so sure of your French version
1 heure
Thanks, W/A! Yes, I was much more concerned about correcting all the misunderstandings of the underlying meaning.
disagree Sandra Mouton : Pas très accrocheur pour du contenu lié à une série TV. Ce ne sont pas les agneaux qui mettent bas mais les brebis./ Oui, la brebis met bas un agneau mais pour la tournure avec un nom "mise bas de", il faut se référer à qui met bas, non à qui est mis bas.
2 heures
Merci, Sandra ! Yes, indeed, I was more concerned in the first instance about giving the correct meaning! Ah yes, but I thought we could say that a « brebis met bas d'un agneau... »
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-3
13 heures

fort comme un boeuf

As a lover of simplicity, I'll go for "fort comme un boeuf/taureau" since the expression exists in French. The English expression you mention refers to a very high level of physical strength and should not be taken too litterally. Unlike Tony M. I (respectfully) think it does not need keeping in French.

Peer comment(s):
disagree Tony M : Undertranslation: this is much more than just 'strong as an ox' — it's the whole mental attitude of fearless, etc. etc.
8 minutes
disagree B D Finch : The source expression is not really about a "very high level of physical strength".
2 heures
neutral Daryo : strength certainly helps, but it's more a question of persistence, not giving up even in most difficult situations.
9 heures
disagree Eliza Hall : Too far from the original, and also a cliche, whereas the EN original is not a cliche at all. This translation also loses all the connotations of unperturability and calm willingness to do whatever's needed. The EN is not just about strength.
1 jour 6 heures
Something went wrong...
+1
13 heures
anglais term (edited): he could deliver lambs in a force 9 gale

il serait parfaitement capable de faire accoucher une brebis même dans la pire des tempêtes

a force 9 gale = extremely strong wind

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beaufort_scale
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gale
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Beaufort_wind_scale.png

I don't think that they had in mind exactly a force 9 gale - it's more a way of saying "in the most horrible weather" - i.e. "the most horrible weather couldn't stop him"

Regarding the question of how this would be perceived, there is the problem of people who never set foot out of a town, never went in wild nature, or even the countryside - trying to make them understand how it looks like "out there" is a bit like trying to square the circle, or explain to a fish what is "flying" ... to some people this would mean nothing, can't change that.

--------------------------------------------------
Note added at 22 hrs (2019-09-11 20:00:06 GMT)
--------------------------------------------------

if you want something "universally understood", with more or less the same meaning, you could always ditch both "deliver lambs" and "a force 9 gale":


il est parfaitement capable de braver la pire des tempêtes (si nécessaire)

même la plus forte des tempêtes ne peut l'arrêter

...


Depends really on who exactly is supposed to be the target audience.
Peer comment(s):
neutral Ph_B (X) : J'ai quand même un doute sur l'efficacité de l'image sur des Français.
1 heure
l'efficacité de l'image sur des Français? Autant parlant que pour des Anglais - à l'exception d'une faible minorité de population rurale.
neutral B D Finch : Aaaarh they don't have The Archers in France!
8 heures
Can't see how it would help - just listening is poor substitute for experiencing it for real. Even in English, it really makes sense only to farmers!
agree Eliza Hall : This sounds natural and I agree that there's no need to translate "force 9" literally. It's the strongest imaginable storm (short of a tornado or hurricane, of course).
1 jour 6 heures
Thanks!
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