| Pages in topic: < [1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8] > | Commentary on rates by job poster(s) in their posts Thread poster: Henry Hinds
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Aleksandr Okunev (X)
Local time: 10:10
English to Russian
| Nothing new to me | May 19, 2006 |
Yes, it does reflect poorly on the site
Not to me, at least not any more. When I joined
Proz two years ago I tried self-promotion and job
bidding a bit, but it has proven ineffective, moreover,
not enjoyable. One of the colleagues described job
postings as “cattle calls”, a very accurate definition,
in my humble opinion.
The general mood on Proz is that the outsourcer
is somewhat superhuman, a divine creature who
sends manna from heaven to us, earthly wordsmiths.
Take Blue Board, for example. “They did pay” is
not even regarded as something offensive while
it really is. No mentioning of, say, terminology
support, friendliness of the schedule and many
other issues vital for translation and which, when
incorporated into BB, could help newbies discover
who’s who on Proz and make the BB a good promotion
tool for really nice outsourcers. No, no format
changes are planned, we got new design recently -
icons, colours, layout, but the essence unfortunately
remains the same. It creates an impression that
posting a job is already more than enough to make
you a VIP on Proz. And if you pay the service provider,
you become a 5-star goodnik.
I have read a few forum threads on Proz where
a freelancer made an observation about the
opinion of an outsourcer participating in the same
thread. Immediately a few “colleagues” lashed out
quite rudely at her/him, saying that the outsourcer
was giving them all jobs and daily bread, with the
implication that the outsourcer is always right.
I think the purpose of a translation web site is to
be a useful tool in the art and business of translation
and help its members and visitors correctly identify
what every participant, a translator or an agency, is
worth. Making money on such a site is not easy,
but something tells me that the owner of such a site
will always have some bread and butter.
Technically speaking - ignore this job and similar ones.
Filter off the agency.
Don’t worry.
Be happy.
Thank you.
Alex
~~~
| | | | Bill Greendyk 
United States
Local time: 03:10
Member (2002)
Spanish to English
+ ...
| Do you really think these are quotes? | May 19, 2006 |
df49f wrote: worse yet: a total of 43 bidders are already fighting for the privilege...  this is getting ridiculous... df [Edited at 2006-05-19 19:30]
Hi!
The number is up to 56 now, but honestly, does anyone really believe that 56 people are going to bid on a 3000 word job that will pay them $45? I'd love to read the language of some of those quotes!! My bet is that most, if not all, of those "quotes" are furious "bidders" who are venting their frustrations. While I'm as offended by the job offer as anyone else, I have more faith in our colleagues here than to believe that even 5 of them would bid on such a low-priced, offensively-worded job offer.
Just my opinion, but then again maybe I'm too naïve. 
Have a great weekend everyone and put this one behind you!
Bill
[Edited at 2006-05-19 22:51]
| | | | | None of our current rules applies | May 19, 2006 |
Anabel Martínez wrote:
Who said best ignore it.
Just so no one blames any moderator, I would like to point out that we don't currently have any rules that would apply in this case. Personally, I think it would be fair to stipulate henceforth, that job postings should used to describe a job, and not to lecture on rates.
In other words, I don't see a problem in barring statements like the following: "as we cannot, unfortunately, afford to pay the sky-high European market's prices. Remember that in addition to this small amount you will gain some practical good experience (which never, as you are no doubt weel aware, comes free!)"
Beyond that, I can only ask that everyone continue to put out the message that one must calculate one's required rate and stick to it.
| | | | | Aggregate data concerning quotes | May 19, 2006 |
Bill Greendyk wrote:
The number is up to 56 now, but honestly, does anyone really believe that 56 people are going to bid on a 3000 word job that will pay them $45? I'd love to read the language of some of those quotes!! My bet is that most, if not all, of those "quotes" are furious "bidders" who are venting their frustrations.
My understanding is that we can share data in aggregate terms. Here it is:
About half of the quotes are not serious. Of the half that are serious, the majority quote higher than what the poster offers.
Several quotes are in the poster's range, however.
I'm all ears.
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Bill Greendyk
United States
Local time: 03:10
Member (2002)
Spanish to English
+ ...
henry wrote: Bill Greendyk wrote:
The number is up to 56 now, but honestly, does anyone really believe that 56 people are going to bid on a 3000 word job that will pay them $45? I'd love to read the language of some of those quotes!! My bet is that most, if not all, of those "quotes" are furious "bidders" who are venting their frustrations. My understanding is that we can share data in aggregate terms. Here it is: About half of the quotes are not serious. Of the half that are serious, the majority quote higher than what the poster offers. Several quotes are in the poster's range, however. I'm all ears.
Well, Henry, I was quite wrong in my assumption, it seems. I guess it just goes to show that those of us who are lucky enough to charge what we want, or close to it, should perhaps have more pity on someone who, out of sheer necessity, would take on such a job. Honestly, that makes me feel bad.
Thanks for sharing that with us.
Bill
| | | | Susana Galilea
United States
Local time: 02:10
English to Spanish
+ ...
| getting somewhere | May 19, 2006 |
henry wrote:
In other words, I don't see a problem in barring statements like the following: "as we cannot, unfortunately, afford to pay the sky-high European market's prices. Remember that in addition to this small amount you will gain some practical good experience (which never, as you are no doubt weel aware, comes free!)"
Seems to me that would be a step in the right direction. After all, rates are just a reflection of larger problems such as a lack of recognition and ill-advised assumptions regarding the profession. Challenging the language used by a poster may not solve the issue, but it might help to hinder such attempts.
henry wrote:
I'm all ears.
Excellent, thanks for your responsiveness
Susana
[Edited at 2006-05-19 22:43]
| | | | Henry Hinds
United States
Local time: 01:10
English to Spanish
+ ...
TOPIC STARTER In memoriam | Now where is it? | May 19, 2006 |
Going back to the home page, this thread on "Cheapo, Cheapo" no longer appears on the list of subjects posted. It may now only be found upon accessing the "View additional recent posts" link, but is still far from hitting the bottom, and the two posts above and below it are still seen with nothing in between.
Why might this be?
| | | | | Goose and gander | May 20, 2006 |
When I see one/two-cent offers, I simply ignore them. In fact, it seems that I have develop a mathematical discapacity: I fail to comprehend single-digit numbers regarding to fees. Thus, as a general statement, I would say: ignore them. I never participate in this type of discussions.
Having said that, I rush to say also that this particular job offer might have crossed the limit and become a violation of those same laws that are applicable to monopoly/price fixing/unfair competitio... See more When I see one/two-cent offers, I simply ignore them. In fact, it seems that I have develop a mathematical discapacity: I fail to comprehend single-digit numbers regarding to fees. Thus, as a general statement, I would say: ignore them. I never participate in this type of discussions.
Having said that, I rush to say also that this particular job offer might have crossed the limit and become a violation of those same laws that are applicable to monopoly/price fixing/unfair competition situations. I would like to hear opinions from lawyers with broader and deeper expertise than mine in those areas of the law.
Specifically, those laws forbid service providers trying to fix the price of the service. They also forbid service consumers to do the same. Here there is a characterization of prices, the "sky-high European prices". It is not a stretch of imagination to think that that statement aims to fix prices from the service consumers' point of view. On the other hand, I do not see any problem saying: "Our clients have a limited budget, and we cannot afford paying …,” or simply, “We pay …”
Furthermore, it would be unimaginable to me to advertise my legal services as: “I can provide to you a QUALITY legal representation at AFRICAN prices.” I believe that I would run into trouble with my local Bar Association. Granted, law practice is, in the US and, probably, everywhere else, a heavily regulated profession, unlike translation.
Again, I am just thinking aloud. I have no particular expertise in the relevant areas of law in this case. I would certainly welcome opinions from experts.
Luis ▲ Collapse
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Maria Karra
United States
Local time: 03:10
Member (2000)
Greek to English
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| to Henry (Hinds): sorting | May 20, 2006 |
Henry Hinds wrote:
Going back to the home page, this thread on "Cheapo, Cheapo" no longer appears on the list of subjects posted. It may now only be found upon accessing the "View additional recent posts" link, but is still far from hitting the bottom, and the two posts above and below it are still seen with nothing in between.
Why might this be?
I think the sorting is done differently on the two pages. On the home page I think it's done by topic (or rather, according to the time a new topic is posted), which is why the header of that table is "Recent topics in translator forums", while on the "view additional recent posts" page it is done by forum post (i.e. according to the time a new post was added to a thread).
So on the home page, the most recent topic appears at the top of the list, while on the recent-posts page, whenever a new post is added to a thread, the thread title moves to the top of the list.
Maria
[Edited at 2006-05-20 01:55]
| | | | Giles Watson
Italy
Local time: 09:10
Italian to English
In memoriam
Fernando Toledo wrote: And to Giles Giles Watson wrote:
If they're so cheap, you could always take advantage...
... and outsource work to them.
Who knows? They might even be good.
FWIW
Giles
Well, I can not say my opinion cause the rules in Proz.com
Hi Fernando,
The comment was of course ironic.
There once was - and possibly still is - an agency near where I live that used machine translation and then got non-specialists to "edit" (i.e. rewrite, if they were conscientious) the texts. I live in a university town so the agency found quite a lot of cheap labour among the students.
It has to be said that the resulting quality left something to be desired (this is an understatement!) but the agency seemed to find plenty of customers, although perhaps not all of them returned. The point is that its presence a couple of kilometres away had absolutely no effect on my business, even in pre-Internet days.
The difference in rates was such that I could have commissioned them to do some of my work and still left myself a very good margin, but only in theory.
Translations are like haircuts: they are extremely difficult to repair.
Yours tonsorially,
Giles
| | | | | Because of the title | May 20, 2006 |
Henry Hinds wrote:
Going back to the home page, this thread on "Cheapo, Cheapo" no longer appears on the list of subjects posted. It may now only be found upon accessing the "View additional recent posts" link, but is still far from hitting the bottom, and the two posts above and below it are still seen with nothing in between.
Why might this be?
When the title of a topic doesn't help people understand what is contained within, it may be a distraction on the home page and therefore may be removed. (This is one of the reasons that our first forum rule is to write detailed titles. It says, "Posting titles should be as descriptive of their content as possible. If they are not, they may be edited.")
I have edited the title of your post and restored it to the home page. Note that I have taken more liberty in editing it than would be usual--your initial post does not give much to work with--so if you prefer another title, please edit it again yourself. In any case, please write descriptive titles in the future (not titles such as, "cheapo, cheapo".)
| | | | | Thanks, Luis | May 20, 2006 |
Luis Arri Cibils wrote:
Having said that, I rush to say also that this particular job offer might have crossed the limit and become a violation of those same laws that are applicable to monopoly/price fixing/unfair competition situations. I would like to hear opinions from lawyers with broader and deeper expertise than mine in those areas of the law.
Specifically, those laws forbid service providers trying to fix the price of the service. They also forbid service consumers to do the same. Here there is a characterization of prices, the "sky-high European prices". It is not a stretch of imagination to think that that statement aims to fix prices from the service consumers' point of view. On the other hand, I do not see any problem saying: "Our clients have a limited budget, and we cannot afford paying …,” or simply, “We pay …”
That was my feeling, too: there must be restraint on both sides.
Again, I am just thinking aloud. I have no particular expertise in the relevant areas of law in this case. I would certainly welcome opinions from experts.
Nice to hear from you, Luis. I wonder if you can comment on what sort of attorney would be qualified to render an opinion on this matter, and on the matter of handling pricing in sites like ProZ.com generally? If there are other legal professionals reading this, I'd appreciate any direction.
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moken
Local time: 08:10
English to Spanish
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| What the heck are African prices anyway? | May 20, 2006 |
I have two takes on this matter: both are equally critical but someone has to give a different view I suppose.
I haven't lived in Africa, though I have visited on a few occasions. Regarding certain goods, especially luxury products, African prices are astronomical. Second hand cars, especially FWD's, sell for more in Africa than they do in Europe (read Malaria Dreams: An African Adventure by Stuart Stevens for more references). I dare say this is the case with many other products. S... See more I have two takes on this matter: both are equally critical but someone has to give a different view I suppose.
I haven't lived in Africa, though I have visited on a few occasions. Regarding certain goods, especially luxury products, African prices are astronomical. Second hand cars, especially FWD's, sell for more in Africa than they do in Europe (read Malaria Dreams: An African Adventure by Stuart Stevens for more references). I dare say this is the case with many other products. So what exactly are African prices supposed to be? I imagine life in Africa can be just about as unfortunately cheap as death is at other times, but in other aspects it can be extremely expensive. If I were African, I think I'd try to be more cautious about the image I conveyed of the continent.
But there's a second question to be asked here: when I saw the ad, I didn't even ponder over it for a minute. Not for me. Next? Before reacting furiously, why not ask yourself if the ad is targeted at YOU? (I'll concede that the prospective language combinations were a bit optimistic for someone not targeting translators from high-income countries) If not, does it really deserve any response?
Henry's stats comments are not in the least surprising. I have heard calls on other threads for freelancers to adapt to the supplier's local market rates. So why would anyone be surprised or even object to an agency in Libya charging $.015? Although I agree it's a nasty-looking ad attempting to get cheap/free translations for their own promos, so far none of my clients have asked me to adjust my rates to those offered by an agency in Libya - Ok, ok, I hear you saying "not yet!".
But let's not forget that ProZ.com is a worldwide service, so why shouldn't there be (10!) translators throughout low-income countries bidding for the job. Why shouldn't someone fortunate enough to have an Internet connection in Haiti bid for it? Based on Henry's estimation, 33 of the 66 bids were serious. A few (can we safely say 10?) actually bid at the requested levels. Is ProZ.com such a small site that we cannot imagine 10 bidders in a global community of roughly 3 billion people?
Think about it.
Take care everyone!
Álvaro  ))
Only as a footnote, and not as a part of my main discussion, something I've said elsewhere:
Our situation is no different to that of a Detroit factory worker. How many of us actually spare them a thought when buying a new car - how many of us base our local supermarket purchases on "support for the local boys"?
Are we not more than ready to accept a dog-eat-dog world, providing: a. that we do the eating or b. that it's other dogs who are involved, especially when we get to bite up the scraps?
If we are to be coherent, and I know I'll get sick of saying this, when will we start putting our money where are mouth is? I've asked this before and nobody really answered... ▲ Collapse
| | | | moken
Local time: 08:10
English to Spanish
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| Don't forget, they're in Libya, which IS Africa after all.... | May 20, 2006 |
Luis Arri Cibils wrote:
Furthermore, it would be unimaginable to me to advertise my legal services as: I can provide to you a QUALITY legal representation at AFRICAN prices. I believe that I would run into trouble with my local Bar Association. Granted, law practice is, in the US and, probably, everywhere else, a heavily regulated profession, unlike translation.
Luis
Hi Luis,
Although I've already said that the issue of African prices is arguable, which is the equivalent local organisation for translators in Libya? Would they be concerned about a Libyan agency offering "African" prices?
Not on my map.
;O) ;O)
| | | | Irene N
United States
Local time: 02:10
English to Russian
+ ...
| Speaking of ignoring | May 20, 2006 |
When an ostrich sees a threat, it hides its head in a sand. As the Russian joke goes:
"Sign in a zoo: "Do not frighten the ostriches - concrete floor!"
In our business ingoring = giving way with curtsey. IMHO.
Kind regards,
Irene
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