| Pages in topic: [1 2 3] > | Remove inclusive format (Staff: we'll rename it to "concise") Thread poster: ibz
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ibz 
Local time: 20:31
Member (2007)
English to German
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I see an disturbing trend on ProZ to use the inclusive format on controversial threads.
The latest example is Henry's thread about the use of AI in our work.
Why asking a question to the users of this site and then not giving any explanations to well-founded criticism? What is the reasoning behind this?
As I see it, the inclusive format is abused here to make such threads simply disappear. RIP.
And this post will probably also be deleted soon. Stay tuned ... See more I see an disturbing trend on ProZ to use the inclusive format on controversial threads.
The latest example is Henry's thread about the use of AI in our work.
Why asking a question to the users of this site and then not giving any explanations to well-founded criticism? What is the reasoning behind this?
As I see it, the inclusive format is abused here to make such threads simply disappear. RIP.
And this post will probably also be deleted soon. Stay tuned
[Subject edited by staff or moderator 2023-10-18 18:31 GMT] ▲ Collapse
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I totally agree, and 'inclusive' is a misnomer, as anyone can already participate all they like in the standard format. All the so-called inclusive format does is to exclude people from posting more than twice. This means that as the debate evolves, people are prevented from reacting to new information posted.
I have seen no evidence that the 'inclusive' format encourages more people to participate.
The purpose can only be to limit debate. 'Restrictive' describes this f... See more I totally agree, and 'inclusive' is a misnomer, as anyone can already participate all they like in the standard format. All the so-called inclusive format does is to exclude people from posting more than twice. This means that as the debate evolves, people are prevented from reacting to new information posted.
I have seen no evidence that the 'inclusive' format encourages more people to participate.
The purpose can only be to limit debate. 'Restrictive' describes this format more accurately. I tend to avoid 'inclusive' topics for the above reasons. Proz clearly doesn't want to hear much from the more active forum participants in these topics, so I stay away.
In a recent topic about the CPD points system, Proz changed the format to restrictive as soon as some critical comments were posted instead of reacting to the criticism. This demonstrates an attitude of contempt for the members and is one of the reasons I decided not to renew my membership this year. ▲ Collapse
| | | | Lingua 5B
Bosnia and Herzegovina
Local time: 20:31
Member (2009)
English to Croatian
+ ...
| Wasn't aware | Oct 16, 2023 |
I wasn't aware what inclusive format was or what it meant. In this case, it appears like a survey. In surveys, the quantity/diversification of participants is more important than what they say or have to say. If its purpose is a large number of various participants, then it's just a rearranged survey.
| | | | ibz
Local time: 20:31
Member (2007)
English to German
+ ...
TOPIC STARTER
Lingua 5B wrote:
I wasn't aware what inclusive format was or what it meant. In this case, it appears like a survey. In surveys, the quantity/diversification of participants is more important than what they say or have to say. If its purpose is a large number of various participants, then it's just a rearranged survey.
That's what you have polls for!
As Thomas said, the inclusive format was repeatedly introduced AFTER the discussion was already active (and critical).
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Lingua 5B
Bosnia and Herzegovina
Local time: 20:31
Member (2009)
English to Croatian
+ ...
ibz wrote: Lingua 5B wrote:
I wasn't aware what inclusive format was or what it meant. In this case, it appears like a survey. In surveys, the quantity/diversification of participants is more important than what they say or have to say. If its purpose is a large number of various participants, then it's just a rearranged survey.
That's what you have polls for! As Thomas said, the inclusive format was repeatedly introduced AFTER the discussion was already active (and critical).
I wasn't aware, as I wasn't following everything, that it was introduced while the thread was ongoing/in the midst of it.
On my end, I can't see participants' avatars in inclusive format, and everything looks very strange. I thought it was a bug. LOL
| | | | | I thought the inclusive format is chosen by the OP | Oct 16, 2023 |
and always wondered why they would do so 
| | | | Tom in London
United Kingdom
Local time: 19:31
Member (2008)
Italian to English
Christel Zipfel wrote: and always wondered why they would do so
Maybe to stop eternally resurgent threads such as the notorious "Ask me anything about subtitling".
| | | | Lingua 5B
Bosnia and Herzegovina
Local time: 20:31
Member (2009)
English to Croatian
+ ...
Tom in London wrote: Christel Zipfel wrote: and always wondered why they would do so Maybe to stop eternally resurgent threads such as the notorious "Ask me anything about subtitling".
I have never visited that thread, but if it has an educational orientation, what's the problem? There are always new people entering the field having questions re. the subtitling process, business, clients, etc.
But if we are asked "Are you using GPT in your everyday life", that's not educational, that's surveying.
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expressisverbis
Portugal
Local time: 19:31
Member (2015)
English to Portuguese
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| We should be thankful | Oct 16, 2023 |
Tom in London wrote:
Maybe to stop eternally resurgent threads such as the notorious "Ask me anything about subtitling".
And you need to stop that kind of comments.
There's nothing wrong with that thread. This is a forum for translators and subtitling is one of the services a translator provides.
I've visited that thread before because I've done subtitling in the past and I still do it just for the fun of it.
We also work with subtitling software, formats, time codes, etc. There's a lot of technical stuff to learn and there are questions that come up, just like with CAT tools or any other question about translation and interpretation.
Btw, we should be thankful to the members/collegues for taking the time to help us for free!
Back on topic... I totally agree that this is one more thing to be removed.
It's the same as being told to "shut up" or refrain from saying what we think and express our opinion about what is wrong and not working.
It's a shame, because by expressing our opinion we are at the same time helping you with a few ways to improve the site.
[Edited at 2023-10-16 21:25 GMT]
[Edited at 2023-10-16 21:26 GMT]
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My own impression is that the "Inclusive" (i.e. restrictive) format, rather than attracting more contributors, as the official ProZ view claims, has the opposite effect and discourages discussion, rather than encouraging it. However, as a scientist I'm prepared to consider evidence to the contrary.
In an ongoing dialogue with ProZ about this issue, I have asked a moderator to provide some evidence that changing a topic's category to "Inclusive" does indeed "[make] it easier for a la... See more My own impression is that the "Inclusive" (i.e. restrictive) format, rather than attracting more contributors, as the official ProZ view claims, has the opposite effect and discourages discussion, rather than encouraging it. However, as a scientist I'm prepared to consider evidence to the contrary.
In an ongoing dialogue with ProZ about this issue, I have asked a moderator to provide some evidence that changing a topic's category to "Inclusive" does indeed "[make] it easier for a large number of people to weigh in and have their input considered". If this is true, it should be easy enough to find examples in support of it.
If such evidence is forthcoming, I will present it here for your consideration. If not, then not. ▲ Collapse
| | | | ibz
Local time: 20:31
Member (2007)
English to German
+ ...
TOPIC STARTER | Reason for this thread | Oct 17, 2023 |
Just to be quite clear: I started this thread in direct reaction to Henry's thread "Are you managing to use AI in your work, to your benefit and the benefit of your clients?" as well as my own one to remove ChatGPT from KudoZ.
I really buggers me that moderators are not prepared to react to criticism, don't even answer any direct questions such as the ones posed by Barbara and instead opt to keep schtum or to apply the inclusive (restrictive) format. Is ProZ really interested in our... See more Just to be quite clear: I started this thread in direct reaction to Henry's thread "Are you managing to use AI in your work, to your benefit and the benefit of your clients?" as well as my own one to remove ChatGPT from KudoZ.
I really buggers me that moderators are not prepared to react to criticism, don't even answer any direct questions such as the ones posed by Barbara and instead opt to keep schtum or to apply the inclusive (restrictive) format. Is ProZ really interested in our opinion? I very much doubt so.
And before this post gets deleted for not being in line with some or other forum rule saying that we are not allowed to discuss moderators' actions: I did try to contact them directly - no reaction at all! ▲ Collapse
| | | | Baran Keki
Türkiye
Local time: 21:31
Member
English to Turkish
Tom in London wrote:
Maybe to stop eternally resurgent threads such as the notorious "Ask me anything about subtitling".
the threads like "Corona Diary" or "Completely Frivolous Thread" or any other thread that doesn't involve AI, CAT tools, 'translation dead' etc.
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Samuel Murray
Netherlands
Local time: 20:31
Member (2006)
English to Afrikaans
+ ...
| I, on the other hand | Oct 17, 2023 |
I, on the other hand, am in favour of topic starters having more control over the thread that they start.
For example, I have suggested in the past that thread starters should have the ability to hide selected replies (such replies would then appear smaller or in grey or would be visible when you click "Show more"), to allow them a measure of control of an out-of-control thread. Since ProZ.com has decided not to deal with trolls anymore, trolling has become more prevalent on the ... See more I, on the other hand, am in favour of topic starters having more control over the thread that they start.
For example, I have suggested in the past that thread starters should have the ability to hide selected replies (such replies would then appear smaller or in grey or would be visible when you click "Show more"), to allow them a measure of control of an out-of-control thread. Since ProZ.com has decided not to deal with trolls anymore, trolling has become more prevalent on the ProZ.com forums (trolls believe that they have the right to troll, that trolling is part of the "fun" of a forum), and many threads that show great potential at the start quickly degenerate into a free-for-all food fight that makes a mockery of the effort put in by responders who are serious.
I'm also okay with it if a thread starter changes the thread to inclusive after a while (when they realize that the thread has been or is at a danger of being taken over by a small group of extremely regular responders).
If I had to redesign the inclusive format, I'd change it so that you're not limited to just 2 replies, but limited to e.g. 2 replies per 48 hours. The stated purpose of the inclusive format is to prevent a thread being hijacked by a gang of over-eager responders. Limiting the number of characters was an odd move -- perhaps to prevent posters from endlessly editing their posts with new content to overcome the post limit...?
I also dislike the term "inclusive" -- it creates the wrong impression, and we've already seen how non-regular posters misinterpret the term and use "inclusive" format for questions that are really not suitable for this format.
The assumption with the name "inclusive" is that more people will respond to a thread if a thread has visibly fewer responses from very regular posters (which kinda makes sense, but still, the name "inclusive" is confusing to users who don't know the reasoning for why that term was chosen).
[Edited at 2023-10-17 08:49 GMT] ▲ Collapse
| | | | Tom in London
United Kingdom
Local time: 19:31
Member (2008)
Italian to English
expressisverbis wrote:
And you need to stop that kind of comments.
I'm not sure I like your tone.
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